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Metapost: The terrifying cesspool of hate and rage, aka “The noble democratic experiment”

Thanks to faithful reader Mark for this all-too-appropriate image!

Today is election day in the United States, and instead of attempting to quell the inevitable spirited discussions that will spin off into spittle-inducing rage, I’ve provided this post, on which you are all welcome to go at it. Feel free to boast, moan, commiserate, celebrate, argue, complain, whine defensively, or write learned, level-headed essays about why your political opponents should be rounded up and put into camps. And remember, no matter how bad you thought this year’s election was, at least it didn’t involve Spider-Man.

And if you want to discuss, you know, comics, you should probably just do so over here.

551 responses to “Metapost: The terrifying cesspool of hate and rage, aka “The noble democratic experiment””

  1. The Restless Mouse
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:12 am [Reply]

    Ok, uhhh “Pat Paulsen for President!”

    (My dad used to get mad about that guy using the process to promote his comedy career, but I thought it was kind of cool)

  2. D. Cohen
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:46 am [Reply]

    We need an election choice called “none of the above”. This choice would be treated like any other candidate in the election. If it “wins” the election, then the other candidates are discarded and the candidate selection process restarts, with the next electioncoming real soon (in a few weeks or days). The next election also has the none-of-the-above choice. The cycle repeats until some candidate who is not none-of-the-above wins. As long as none-of-the-above wins, the old politicians stay in office. The process would put pressure on the system to nominate more respectable candidates and make it more dangerous to go “negative”, since a vote against someone does not automatically translate into a vote for you.

  3. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:49 am [Reply]

    Jeez, Josh, offer us an arena wherein we can scream partisan politics until our eyeballs bleed and our skulls explode, and you get… nuttin, honey! Nuttin’ but nice. Go figure!

    Oh, and Restless Mouse, I went with the family to see the Smothers Brothers over the weekend, and they did a Pat Paulsen retrospective that was very touching.

  4. Aitherion
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:03 am [Reply]

    I’m putting this out here immediately because if I don’t, someone will-

    How many people are looking into moving out of the country if their respective candidate loses? I’ve already got the Canada travel brochures and airfare ready in the event of a McCain victory.

  5. nil zed
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:07 am [Reply]

    my guest room is ready…

  6. Nimrod Gently
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:10 am [Reply]

    Vote Obama or I swear to God I will kill you where you stand.


  7. V
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:17 am [Reply]

    Forget your US elections, it’s only 4 days until the New Zealand elections! Just think of the ways it’ll change all of your lives…with all the new sheep and rugby policies.

  8. John C Fremont
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:19 am [Reply]

    There were some clips of Pat Paulson attempting to walk on water on YouTube the other day, but now that I want to link to one, I can’t find anything. There’s lots of other clips, though. I always assumed the offer of written transcripts of his editorials on the Smothers Brothers was a joke until my sister sent in a self-addressed envelope and got one in the mail. And then another one, and so on.

    Did I ever tell you about the time I voted for Nader in 2000 because I wanted to vote my conscience and I figured it wouldn’t matter which of the other two won? Oh, good times.

  9. Antiquated Tory
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:53 am [Reply]

    In some ways, the excitement over this election is like getting excited over a soap comic. “Which pragmatic, centrist candidate with a taste for pushing dull but useful legislation do you want to win this election?!?”
    Of course, one is more experienced (I think I can say more qualified) while the other is more interesting. And then John McCain, the experienced one, decided to run a completely self-destructive campaign appealing to the base. Maybe he didn’t want to be outdone by a Dem, and a Clinton at that, when it came to starting out strong and charging headlong over a cliff.

  10. Mooselet
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:54 am [Reply]

    V: Will the sheep and rugby go together? The All Blacks might actually win then. Oh who am I kidding – the Wallabies are hopeless regardless.

    Oh, right… election nonsense, hate and vitriol. Ummm… I got nothin’.

  11. DrBear
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:00 am [Reply]

    One of the best Pat Paulsen lines, on discrimination against women:

    “I refuse to discriminate against anybody because of the shape of their skin.”

  12. V
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:02 am [Reply]

    @ Mooselet: You question the supremacy of the All Blacks? I sense an entire country heading over to your house to show you the error of your ways.

  13. Rocetboy
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:07 am [Reply]

    What we need is a two-day vote. THe first day, we would have all canidates open to us. That way, we can vote who we really want as president. So we don’t have to do that ‘duhhh, if I don’t vote person A, then B will be president. I don’t like person A, but I like B even less’ situation. The second day, the only voting choices are the top 3 from the first day. This is they day that we would vote the lesser of 3 evils.

    At least, that’s the best I can come up with, it helps with people like D. Cohen who feel guilty for voting a 3rd party.

    Fun fact, I voted for Nader twice myself. In 2000 even, because that’s who I’d rather have as president. If there had been no Nader, I would have voted Bush. So the people who voted for Nader took votes away from Bush line is not as cut and dry as it’s played out as.

  14. The Divine O'F
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:18 am [Reply]

    #4: I’m learning Spanish and I have a couple of likely places in Mexico picked out. I know, Canada… but I don’t like being cold.

    And John C Fremont, it’s all your fault!

  15. Mumblix Grumph
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:19 am [Reply]

    If you bastards don’t vote for Candidate X, then I’m coming to your house to personally rip you a new one!
    How in the hell can you even consider voting for Candidate Y? Are you nuts? President Y would be a damn disaster!

    For the sake of this country and all of it’s citizens, please make the sane choice and vote for Candidate X!

    I’m candidate X, and I approve of this message.

  16. Little Guy
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:20 am [Reply]

    If Mike Patterson wins, I’m moving to America.

  17. Harry Paratestes
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:43 am [Reply]

    Personally, I don’t think that people who disagree with my politics should be thrown into camps, I think that they should be thrown into huge industrial woodchippers.

  18. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:44 am [Reply]

    Finally! I found some election day fear and loathing for y’all. Here’s a BM of Edison Lee that has, as its actual subject matter, a potential BM of Edison Lee!

    You’re welcome!

  19. InkAllergy
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:47 am [Reply]

    As a person who reached the age of maturity (in a manner of speaking) when Reagan first came into office, I remember the Cold War and the dread it inspired. When voting for the president of these United States, I never lose sight of the fact that this person has a finger on one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world. This has not changed. We are still in a nuclear charged world. This aspect is what terrified me the most about Geo W Bush. I did not trust his sense of judgment regarding the use of the military and, quite possibly, nuclear armaments. I regularly feared he would use a nuclear device in a petulant manner. It would be the ultimate hissy fit.

    When I vote, I look for the person who has the most calm and rational mind. I read everything they send out and look for contradictions indicating a certain “instability” in thinking. I also look for flexibility in thinking and the capacity to accept different reasoning. I want a mature and capable person as a leader. I want someone who is sober and reflective, thoughtful and open-minded.

    I may not get all I want in a candidate, but I have a high standard and hold the candidates to it. I don’t vote with my heart: I vote with my mind.

  20. Ruth
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:49 am [Reply]

    If Mike Patterson wins, I’m putting a bullet in my brain. And I don’t even live in Canada. I can’t go on living in a world where Mike Patterson is in charge of anything other than the characters in his awful prose.

  21. The Spectacular Spider-Brick, Decreer of Things
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:50 am [Reply]

    Mooselet @ 10 wrote:

    V: Will the sheep and rugby go together? The All Blacks might actually win then.

    Is that an Obama crack? Racist!

  22. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:53 am [Reply]

    OK-Thanks Josh – I’m going to keep it short:
    I mailed in my absentee ballot 3-4 weeks ago.
    Go O.
    And, I just had to say this –
    “Jeepers Crullers!” : D
    That is all. Back to the ‘mix.

  23. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:54 am [Reply]

    Love the Clerk of Courts sign too, BTW. As Paulie Walnuts would say, “Heh.”

  24. Client No. 9
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:59 am [Reply]

    I’m voting for Obama for Clerk of Courts.

  25. AmazingThor
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:04 am [Reply]

    I’d like to blast you all for not voting the same way as me, but then I remembered I’m a non-voting felon. Oops.

  26. kalki
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:06 am [Reply]

    Unlike some celebrities I know (yes, you Alec Baldwin), I won’t promise to move out of the country if my candidate doesn’t win and then renege on that promise.

    All I will say politically is that I wish there were set spending limits on presidential campaigns so: A)They all would be prevented from bombarding us with infomercials and unwanted telephone calls, generally making the whole experience unpleasant, and, B)That people who are good, smart and qualified men and women, but not rich, could run for the office and win.

  27. Brick Bradford
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:21 am [Reply]

    AmazingThor–residents of Asgard get to vote in US elections? Cool.

    Pat Paulsen, whom I once saw on a plane loooooooonnnnnngggg after his glory days on the Smother’s Brothers (he pushed the running for president bit longer than Harold Stassen or Ralph Nader) had what I still believe was the greatest campaign slogan ever: We Cannot Stand Pat.

  28. D. Cohen
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:21 am [Reply]

    What makes you think I like Nader any better than the others?

  29. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:27 am [Reply]

    So if Obama wins, will it be the conservatives’ turn to threaten to move to Canada but never actually do it?

  30. benro
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:28 am [Reply]

    It took me a while to figure out the significance of that election sign. I dropped FBOFW from my chron page immediately after the wedding, and by now I have almost completely lost memory of any of the old characters, to the point that the name ‘Mike Patterson’ means nothing to me. It’s an enormous feeling of freedom to realize that I have achieved this.

  31. Tabby
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:29 am [Reply]

    *** Nothing whatever to do with comic stuff, but ROOPVILLE is featured as one of the places in GA with the lowest gas prices today @ $1.99
    Who’d a thunk it in Sept? Go out & buy yourself and all the goats some gas, True Fable!

  32. Mr. Nice Guy
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:33 am [Reply]

    #15: Actually, I don’t have much of a problem with Candidate Y. It’s Vice-candidate Z who scares the crap out of me.

  33. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:35 am [Reply]

    Here’s my take. I had dinner the other night with my parents, and my father, who is 68, and from whom I got my sarcastic bent on things, said, “This is the most exciting election of my lifetime.”

    This is a man who was born under FDR, lived under Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy and hell – even Nixon.

    This is a man who was very active in the civil rights movement – a white guy who came from money, and who pissed off his parents for doing what he knew was the absolute right thing to do.

    This man got on a train in Atlanta and went to DC for Jimmy Carter’s inauguration, watched Willie Nelson play on the White House lawn.

    So when my father tells me that this is the most exciting election of his lifetime…well, that excites me.

    Yes, I’m a die-hard liberal, but I think it’s more important than that.

    Here’s my life:

    I have more food than I need, more clothes than I can wear. I have a nice roof over my head, and enough money to pay my bills. My husband and I have plenty of toys, we can get in our (gas efficient) cars and get from Point A to Point B without worry.

    We are in good health, and have access to the service we need to stay that way. We both had great education, and access to more, should we so desire.

    We both have jobs that fulfill us, and I can leave work every day feeling that someone, somewhere is better off for what I do.

    I can worship or *not* worship whomever, whenever.

    I don’t have to cover my head to go to outside – and if I wanted to wear my pajamas to the grocery, I could (I don’t, but lots of folks do).

    I can say pretty much whatever I want, I don’t worry for my safety, and I have never feared for my life.

    No matter my petty gripes and bitchings, I am one of the luckiest people I know. I have a life that’s better than 99% of the world population, and on top of all that – I get a vote.

    That’s my take.

  34. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:36 am [Reply]

    30 benro — yours truly is a position to be envied.

    Speaking of envy, part of me envies the fact that this year’s U.S. election is so much more exciting than the one we had in Canada last month. We apparently had the lowest voter turnout ever, with 59.1 percent of registered voters casting ballots. By contrast, some observers seem to think voter turnout today south of the 49th parallel will approach record highs.

    We had two kind of uninspiring leaders helming the two biggest parties. Maybe an apt comparison would be Dukakis and GHW Bush in 1988. But you guys this year have, like, a Trudeau and a Diefenbaker, or something like that.

  35. Erik Swanson
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:38 am [Reply]

    You know, it really pisses me off when people get all censor-y about politics. We have free speech in this country, don’t we? I’m sorry if it would have made you upset if someone had had a partisan thing or two to say about Marmaduke being “too rich.” But isn’t this kind of discussion what makes America great?

    I guess you’re a “troll” if you try to discuss politicws on a comics blog. I don’t know. To me, discussing politics is what makes America great. if you don’t like it, as I’ve said many times this week to people with election fatigue (especially the creators of “on a claire day”).

    Seriously, this is America. Be happy that we have democracy to bitch about. It won’t last forever.

    Erik Swanson

    PS-You can whine all you want anyway, because BARACK is gonna ROCK! Spread that wealth!!

  36. willethompson
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:40 am [Reply]

    #2 D Cohen: The candidates you seek are in Family Circus: Not Me vs Ida No.

  37. Erik Swanson
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:42 am [Reply]

    That is, if you don’t like it, move to Russia. Ha.

    Seriously, did you read On a Claire Day the last couple weeks? They make democracy sound more annoying than PKD…

  38. Ned Ryerson
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:43 am [Reply]

    I had no idea that Louis CK was a character in the BM of Edison Lee.

  39. Muffaroo
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:44 am [Reply]

    I was somewhat surprised to get a message from the Obama camp today: a reminder to vote. Up to now, it’s been all McCain, Palin, McCain, Rick Davis, and so on, bombarding my Yahoo! account. Maybe they figure someone with “Yahoo” in the address must be likely to vote for their ticket.

    In one of my Usenet groups, a regular poster sees the sinister hand of ACORN in a report that Dixville Notch, NH, had 110% turnout. It turns out he added wrong: they got 21 votes from 21 voters. I expect Drudge to run with the 110% figure, and the mainstream media will be calling it a scandal by mid-day.

  40. Sharktattoo
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:45 am [Reply]

    I hate everyone and everything! So there!

  41. farnsworth
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:46 am [Reply]

    As I type this, polls on the east coast have been open about two hours, and her in flyover country for less than an hour.

    At this time, I would like to make a bold prediction:

    No matter the outcome of the presidential election, tens of millions of people will see the result as signaling the end of the republic.

    Isn’t that a happy thought?

  42. Spunde
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:47 am [Reply]

  43. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am [Reply]

    Yeah, it is depressing how bitterly divisive elections can be. I’ve seen a lot of emails and message board comments and so on (not just on this site this past weekend, but all over the place) that are rather disheartening, along the lines of “the world will end if you subhumans vote for my candidate’s opponent”.

    Was it always like this? I don’t remember, for example, Clinton v. Dole 1996 being this bad.

    I guess in the last two presidential elections, one (what’s the opposite of “mitigating”?) factor was the absurd closeness of the result, where a few thousand votes in one state would have changed everything.

    Most observers seem to think this election will be less close than the last two. I hope that ends up meaning less bitterness once the whole thing is over.

  44. Chyron HR
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am [Reply]

    We have free speech in this country, don’t we?

    Yup. That’s the first amendment in a nutshell, “Blog owners shall make no rules abridging the freedom of speech on their privately-owned comment boards.”

  45. rotts
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:00 am [Reply]

    TGIT (thank goodness it’s Tuesday) and all the innuendo, misrepresentations and outright lies are soon over.

    My favorite candidate (other than Pat Paulson) will always be the perennial Lar “America First” Daly, from when I grew up in Chicago in the 40s and 50s.

    Obama will win (the only real “choice”), and I hope it’s a landslide mandate, but he’d better take some serious steps to change things within the first year of his presidency, or he’ll be a one-termer and the Reps will make a comeback.

    What’s needed? Green energy incentives (including a progressive federal gasoline tax, to keep the pressure on and fund alternatives), real health-care reform, close Guantanamo, speak softly/big stick diplomacy, repair our reputation and image with both our overseas allies and enemies.

    That’s my gentle vent!

  46. Idols of Mud
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:03 am [Reply]


  47. anonymous
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:06 am [Reply]

    #33 – Me, too!

    The only thing that really worries me about leadership in the USofA is what effect that’s going to have on my daughter’s future – she is graduating next year from college. The world she is going to be living in is certainly going to be different from the one I grew up in. I am doing OK financially, don’t need more things, am prepared to finish out my life in suburban comfort. My girl has yet to make her way in the world, and I fear (for both our sakes!) she may end up living back here at home because she can’t get a job! And that would be miserable. So whoever wins better make things right, though – whoever wins better bring hisself a pitchfork into the White House to clean up the pile Dubya is leaving behind.

  48. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am [Reply]

    33 – Allie Cat
    Beautifully put. I wish I had my father around to discuss this election – he always liked to talk about his favorite president, Truman, hanging on despite the pro-segregation Dixiecrats splitting from the party (yes, I know it’s an over-simplification).

    35 – Erik
    While I probably agree with your politics, I would point out that there’s a time and place for political bantering – why does it need to come to a blog about comic strips? Yeah, sure, we have the 1st amemdment, but that’s to protect us from government censorship. Why does every forum on the internet have to be open to bitter political partisanship?

  49. Jocko
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:09 am [Reply]

    Hey, how bout them Steelers?

  50. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:09 am [Reply]

    I think both Senator McCain and Senator Obama are good and honorable men with much to admire about them, particularly the fact that neither of them are George W. Bush.

  51. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:11 am [Reply]

    46 – Idols
    I was unaware! I was mostly suspicious of his claiming to have foreign policy experience, having visited Niagara Falls on the U.S. side.
    Also – didya hear ’bout his sister? (That girl is not her daughter. And they keep her in a cage in the basement)

  52. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am [Reply]

    Got up early this morning for the beginning of a typical Tommie Thompson day: white toast with a hint of jam and tea. Showered and headed to the polling place. Since I just moved here in August, it was going to be a new experience. Arrived at 7:05 and the parking lot was full. One of the women said that at 6AM the line to vote stretched out of the building. I had to wait fifteen minutes. Whether you’re candidate is Obama, McCain, or Cynthia “Hotcha!” McKinney, you’ve got to admire that in this election, people really feel that their vote counts for something. I live near a naval base and therefore my neighborhood is very diverse. As I drove home from work last night and saw the children of my apartment complex, all I could think of is that, tomorrow morning, they may truly believe that any one of them could grow up to be president. Good heavens, George W. Bush certainly proved that for simpleton children of the rich. Let it be the same for smart children of the teeming masses.

  53. Chip
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am [Reply]

    It’s ironic that Obama and Biden don’t “spread their wealth,” Biden gave less to charity than I did last year. I prefer that the government let me keep more of my OWN money rather than let O decide who gets a handout. We need LESS government. Everyone rags on W for the state of things, but the democratically controlled congress is the one steering the ship. Their approval rating is lower than the president’s yet I bet they all get re-elected.

  54. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:20 am [Reply]

    #52 – I think Mikey and Dee once visited Montpelier, VT, too. Ooooooo.

  55. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:34 am [Reply]

    You know what I never get tired of? Right-wing wheezers going on and on about how unfair it is to be them, and how anyone who doesn’t want to listen (although their repetitive talking points are impossible to avoid anywhere) to their whining cliche’d diatribes for the 4000th time is “intolerant” and a “libtard.” Also those that seem to think that Sarah Palin is above all reproach and/or mockery, despite being a public figure, and act as if it’s a personal stab wound every time someone comments about her (See Friday’s comments link for examples.)

    And can they shut the fuck up about “spread the wealth?”

  56. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:38 am [Reply]

    50 – Eh, I’m torn, Jocko. I married into a Cleveland Browns family but sometimes I have to root for whatever helps my team from Philly

  57. Artist formerly known as Ben
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:43 am [Reply]


    Oh Dear God, Mike Patterson is insufferable enough as a published novelist.

    JP: No handwriting. Full confession. Funny old world, innit?

    A3G: Lu Ann credits Margo with kindness, leading a shocked Margo to wonder what this daffy bitch has been huffing this time.

    Marvin: Yup, this will be the extent of the Millers’ activity in bed for quite some time.

    DtM: I wonder what office Margaret and Gina are running for, that they think is worth bribing low information voters.

    FW: “Okay, enough chit-chat. Who are we going to have the tree-way with?”

    DT: Go on with the trash talk, ‘bots. In no time, we should be hearing the “yr mama so ruz T” jokes.

    6C: Grandma seems to have Hillary confused with Mao Tse Tung. See also: Tinsley, Bruce.

    Agnes: Apparently, she’s lost Anakin Skywalker’s vote. Well, you won’t want to be associated with him anyway.

    MW: Um, yeah. I think it’s safe to say we get it now.

    Cathy: It’s kind of a bad idea to draw a crowd scene when you can only handle four or five crude facial types. It looks like Starbucks is being invaded by a hideous clone army.

    M-Dawg: In a stark sign of fiscal instability, the neighbors consider moldy cow bones to be the safest form of currency.

    Archie: Jughead half-opens his eyes to look Veronica over, and immediately his hot dog starts leaking. Conclusions, draw your own.

  58. Sequitur
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am [Reply]

    When I was a teen I had a campaign button that read “Elmer Fudd for President.” I wish I still had that button.

  59. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:57 am [Reply]

    In today’s Dinette Set, there’s a guest appearance by Sarah Palin.

  60. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:58 am [Reply]

    Re 54 Chip — I agree that government can often be a bloated and inefficient entity. But I suppose I’d be more sympathetic to advocates of small government if they expressed themselves more along the lines of “I believe that private charity and/or a reliance on an old-fashioned work ethic can help people more than government handouts can” as opposed to “I deserve to keep more of my own money” — in other words, if they made it more about society at large and less about their own self-interest.

  61. Erik
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:59 am [Reply]

    If anyone wants to read about politics, read On a Claire Day. They’ve been ranting about nothing but politics and the economy for the past 2 months, making it sound like democracy is the devil and we might as well just become a soviet dictatorship any day now.

  62. Meanwhile
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:16 am [Reply]

    @54 Chip: The reason Congress has a low approval rating among Democrats is because they have not done enough to stand up to the Bush administration. So yes, it’s still about Bush.

    When I last took a government approval survey, I gave Congress low marks because they aren’t acting liberal enough; they aren’t living up to their platform as Democrats or their duties as representatives of the people who elected them.

    In short, low marks for a Democratic Congress does NOT mean people want more conservatives in their place.

  63. Shem
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:17 am [Reply]

    I clicked on that Electronic Tigers banner ad to the left out of curiosity, and my jaw is still bruised from where it hit the desk. Good Goddess. Makes Mallard Fillmore look like a wishy-washy moderate. I think the fanged Obama was a, uh, nice touch …

  64. B
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:18 am [Reply]

    13: There’s actually a system like that which allows all the voting on one day, it’s called instant runoff voting. How it works is each voter ranks the candidates, and ballots are counted for the first ranked candidate on each ballot. If no candidate has a majority of the votes, the candidate with the fewest votes is knocked off and the votes for them redistributed to the next person on the voter’s list. The process is repeated until a candidate has a majority.

  65. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:19 am [Reply]

    Chip@54 – The Congressional approval rating is low because they have never had the balls to confront Bush on anything.

    All that has gone to Hell in a handbasket is the Democrats fault. The Bush administration and the Republican House and Senate had nothing to do with anything. The “Party of Personal Responsibility” has so many to choose from to blame.

    I hope that you can continue to KEEP YOUR MONEY!

    Don’t ever expect me to help you out when you need it.

  66. farnsworth
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:24 am [Reply]

    The cool thing about instant runoff voting is that it allows people to vote for the person they really want, rather than voting for the Democrat or Republican who scares them the least. It gives a whole new meaning to the concept of “mandate.”

    I actually have a similar situation here in Flyover Country. There is a 0% chance that McCain won’t take my state. Therefore I am free to vote for whom I please, with no worries about consequences.

    So I am voting for Cynthia McKinney. Not because I think that crazy bitch would make a good president. But because I am a supporter of the Green Party, and I want one more vote on record for the Greens.

  67. Idols of Mud
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:25 am [Reply]

    #52 (eerie) and #55 (Calico): I haven’t even gotten into Patterson’s socialistic idea that “government” should help “everyone” get “health care.” Creepy.

    On a serious note: Congress’ unpopularity and the president’s unpopularity are two different things. People may not like Congress as a whole, but they only get to vote for their own representatives. And even with the potential for turnover today, at least 90 percent of the sitting representatives and politicians will retain their seats. Bush doesn’t enjoy that.

  68. Just_human
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:27 am [Reply]

    Here I thought all the liberals fled the country back when Gore lost.. and again when Kerry lost.

  69. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:32 am [Reply]

    70 Just_human
    Oh, we were supposed to stay? It gets kind of cold in Canada!

  70. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:35 am [Reply]

    Today Toronto may break or tie the record for the warmest November 4th ever.

    Of course, the Conservatives are in power here, so if Obama wins and the Democrats retain control of both houses of Congress, then the whole “left-wing Americans threaten to move to Canada” thing gets turned on its head.

  71. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:36 am [Reply]

    It’s supposed to get up to 20 degrees. I have no idea what that means in that weirdass system devised by that crazy bastard Gabriel Fahrenheit.

  72. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:38 am [Reply]

    just-human@69 –

    That was a really stupid and pointless post.

    Where are you going to move if Obama wins?

    Alaska sounds good. In fact, the Governor has imposed a windfall profits tax that gives every citizen a check.

  73. Anonymous
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:45 am [Reply]

    Lest anyone thinks this has been a long campaign season, keep in mind that Randy Parker been running for judge against Reggie Black since 2006. Election Day won’t be coming to JP-land for a while…

  74. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:51 am [Reply]

    #69 – Actually, I did flee the country, but for different reasons (partnership).

    #66 – I don’t mind paying taxes, but I’m tired of not seeing those funds utilized to necessarily help others.
    I know, the Dems are part of the Pork Problem too. Maybe if we yell and scream enough this will change. One can only hope.

  75. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:51 am [Reply]

    #73 – Interesting – Spreading the Wealth, peut-etre?

  76. aloria
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:54 am [Reply]

    I have a friend who has been freaking out because he thinks Obama will win, and if he does, he won’t be able to afford a house because his taxes will go up soooooooooooooo much. He makes 70k a year. I pointed out a few resources that indicate that regardless of who wins, he’d likely be getting a tax CUT.

    Of course, he blamed all those resources on evil liberal slant.

  77. Graymalkin56
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:58 am [Reply]

    I did a write-in vote for Sen. Robert McAllister.

    No, not the pretty-boy Rob Lowe version on “Brothers & Sisters,” who married that harridan Kitty and took a year and a half to stand up to that overbearing mother.

    I voted for the version on “Jack & Bobby,” who married his brother’s widow and cheated on her with the female Vice President. That’s a REAL man!

  78. Bootsy
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:59 am [Reply]

    I vote in every election. It is my duty as a citizen of the great democratic experiment. Usually I walk right in and out. This morning there were so many people, and I was glad to see it.

    But why won’t people vote in local elections?!? Those are even more important to your life in whatever community in which you live! Certainly our moron mayor and dipshit governor (one a dem, the other a repub so no bias here except against morons) races were more important to the fate of this town and our state than the presidential election will be.

    I’d rather stand in line every election day with an informed and involved citizenry participatng in the process.

    Inform yourself on local issues and vote local as well as for national offices.


  79. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:01 pm [Reply]

    #58 – Jeez, AFKABen, way to ruin our political ravings with actual comic strip commentary! :)

  80. Jumper/Howard
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:02 pm [Reply]

    Last night I got up here and asked you
    to fight for your heritage… and you did,
    and it was beautiful.
    The people spoke, the people won. It was a radiant eruption of democracy.

    But I think that was it, fellas. That sort of thing is not likely to happen again…

    At the bottom of all our terrified souls, we know that democracy is a dying giant, a sick, sick, dying, decayed political concept writhing in its final pain. I don’t mean that the United States is finished as a world power. It is the richest, most powerful, most advanced country in the world. I don’t mean the communists are going to take over. They’re deader than we are.

    What is almost finished is the idea that this great country is dedicated to the freedom and flourishing of every individual in it. It’s the individual that’s almost finished. It’s the single, solitary human being that’s almost finished. It’s every single one of you out there that’s almost finished.

    Because this is no longer a nation of independent individuals. It’s a nation of some three hundred-odd million transistorized, deodorized, whiter-than-white, steel-belted bodies, totally unnecessary as human beings and as replaceable as piston rods.

    Well, the time has come to say: Is dehumanization such a bad word? Because whether it’s good or bad, that’s what is so. The whole world is becoming humanoid – creatures that look human but aren’t. The whole world. We’re the most advanced country so we’ll get there first. The whole world’s people are becoming mass-produced, programmed, and numbered.

  81. bats :[
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:02 pm [Reply]

    Okay, I can (or rather, Rex & Co.) say it officially:
    (You’ll have to size up…my account is blowing a floofer…)

  82. Cheeky Wee Monkeys
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:06 pm [Reply]

    Not Mike! He’ll remove every book in the library and replace them with Stone Season.

  83. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:07 pm [Reply]

    71-72 SQB
    Okay, either way, I’m staying put. We have a few Tim Hortons here and I thankfully have health insurance.
    And, we here on the Route 90 snowbelt get crappy winter anyway

  84. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:08 pm [Reply]

    Heh, Bush winning re-election was a factor in my decision to move overseas.

    I think I’ve learned some life lessons from it:

    1. Moving to where you don’t know anybody is really hard. Add in a foreign culture and it’s harder. Add in a foreign language . . .. People threaten to move away because they want to express the strength of their feelings. The reality of actually doing so throws your entire life into turmoil.

    2. Being an American isn’t about who is in the White House. It’s about a shared culture and history. There’s some aspect of this that I don’t know how to put into words.

    3. We’re just another country. And every other country sucks too. France has a great protest tradition and a lot of other positives that the US should emulate, but it’s also stifling and they elected Sarkozy. The Netherlands is free and open and has great bikes, but they have a real problem with racism and also are electing right wing governments. There is no utopia. Wherever you go in the world, there’s going to be downsides. And people have to work towards the kind of society they want to have. It’s hard to participate on that level as foreigner. So if you go abroad, you become a sort of observer to other people’s struggles to implement the kind of society you want to see. This can be really disempowering. If I get arrested at a protest in the UK, I could be deported, which has implications not only for living here, but any other EU country and many non-EU countries.

    4. Anti-foreigner stuff is really crap. People who complain about immigrants have no clue what it’s like to actually be one. They should STFU.

    I wish the US would see itself as part of a larger world. Like, we could just copy stuff we like from other countries. Like Dutch bike lanes! Or the British National Health! We haven’t invented everything we think we have and things don’t have to be invented by us to be worthwhile. I wish we were specifically more aware of things going on in the non-English speaking world.

    . . .

    I’d like to urge all of you to vote to preserve and protect gay rights. No on prop 8! Part of our shared culture is supposed to be about equality.

  85. Nightingale
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:09 pm [Reply]

    Ok I’m off to vote. See you in a few hours. Or days. I’m “lucky” to be partially disabled, as well as seven month pregnant, so my wait at our polls here in SC (in the disability line) is only… two to three hours. Versus my husband’s wait, which will be more like four to six. Kinda makes me feel like copping out, which I Won’t, but all to vote for the lesser of two evils? Grr…. hopefully I won’t go into labor while waiting in line…. that would stink.

  86. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:13 pm [Reply]


    Oh, you betcha! Sure!

    Keep in mind that Palin’s NOT a socialist.

  87. Naked Bunny with a Whip
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:13 pm [Reply]

    I feel disenfranchised by the “wearing pants” voting requirement.

  88. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:15 pm [Reply]

    Although the facts speak otherwise…

  89. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:20 pm [Reply]

    I actually have a ton of respect for Senator McCain, but I can’t resist sharing this remark that nobody would get but you folks:

    John McCain is the Plugger Dwight Eisenhower.

  90. banana
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:25 pm [Reply]

    Old school allie cat, that was beautifully put. I feel much the same way. My parents are old radicals too, and I talked to them last night and my dad said they haven’t felt this excited about an election since JFK. They live in chicago right across the street from grant park and it’s been NUTS! they’re expecting a million people…

    Just wow.

  91. iggyks
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:29 pm [Reply]

    #4 – welcome to the ranks of the thousands of Dems who say they’ll move if the Republican wins and then stay put when he does…

  92. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:30 pm [Reply]

    #87 – Oh, I know. I heard her talking the other night about how Obama is too Socialist.
    Hell, I’d like to receive one of those checks! : )

  93. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:34 pm [Reply]

    If McCain wins, he will be the oldest president elected to a first term, surpassing Ronald Reagan.

    If Obama wins, he will be the darkest president elected to a first term, surpassing Ronald Reagan.

  94. Tim O'Shenko
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:35 pm [Reply]

    Thanks for setting this thread up, Josh. I hope it succeeds in keeping the oil and water separated.

    That said, I found a humorous email in my inbox this morning, reminding me that not all college students vote for socialist liberals. My reply was, “No, just the smart ones do so.”

    The two things I found most interesting about this election: 1) how a man could be considered both an elitist and a socialist, and 2) how another man could be considered a maverick while supporting existing policies.

  95. Anonymous
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:35 pm [Reply]

    I don’t know. Maybe it’s a “freedom ain’t nothing but nothing left to lose”. I just detect an unnatural and irrational exuberance among the “true” right-blogs. Something is going on here, and I feel good about this election.
    I am resigned if things don’t go our way, but I have an optimism I can’t explain. I just feel, deep in my gut, that we are going to prevail. I don’t even feel it’s a Hail Mary or a long-shot, I feel it as if it were a certainty, that I know this country, and the drumbeat of small stories has begun to peel away Obama’s mask in the perfect time-frame: the last couple of weeks, when people are really listening. I feel that many many many people are going to make up their mind when they stare at that touch screen or punch card of pencil card, and they are going to go McCain, the solid, honest, decent man, rather than the hip, glib, urbane slickster who hates them and hates America and everything it stands for.

    I feel it with every bone in my body. I’d damn sure rather be on McCain’s side losing than Obama’s winning, and they are the ones who are nervous, not us.
    A good piece, via Ace:
    Sean Malstrom’s Analysis of the Race
    I think the biggest upset in modern history is going to go down, and with it every pollster (never again will they be given the slightest credence, as everyone will be able to point to this election) and the MSM and the pundits, and the false Republicans like Powell and Will and Noonan and Co. and the fly-over people, exemplified in Palin, will win. I just can’t see her and McCain losing.
    If I’m wrong, I’m wrong about everything I know and everything I hold dear. I just believe it to be true. We’re going to win, and if PA goes McCain’s way, he won’t just cherry pick PA, it means he’ll win VA and NV and maybe even CO and IA and, god help us, MN as well.

    There’s a righteous wind blowing all right, but it sure ain’t behind the man who coldly spoke of bankrupting hard working people or deporting his own aunt with a cool detachment of an automaton. It will be behind the man who can’t raise his arms because he stayed in a Viet Cong prison because of honor and country.
    We can hold our heads up, whatever happens. The Obamatons will slink in the shadows and roll in the dirt when the truth about this entire campaign begins to unravel, as it did for Clinton (remember the China connexion?).
    I can’t wait to see their faces.
    update: When I wrote “I’d rather be with McCain losing than Obama winning” I meant that I think we’re in a better position, seemingly losing in the polls, than Obama is ahead in the polls: think of it: who usually wins a football game, or a pennant series? The team sitting on a lead, or the team with momentum?
    I’ve been irritated (as usual) with the stories saying polls are “trending’ Obama. They aren’t. Not even the flawed ones. They are “trending” McCain, he’s still behind, but it’s tightening. That means he’s gaining, whatever you want to call it, momentum is FOR McCain and AGAINST Obama: if he was up 11 pts. last week and is only up 4pts this week, he’s losing ground. And this is the ideal time to be gaining. This is when upsets happen, when momentum’s inertia keeps moving past the time when they can poll. If McCain evened up all those battleground polls in the last 48 hours, chances are great that he’ll slide even higher in the 24 hours the pollsters can’t touch.
    And all that is even beside the fact that their skewing of the polls means Obama needs 10pts minimum of false pad to REALLY be ahead.
    I feel good. I feel juiced and without any of the dread and foreboding I’ve felt in the past few weeks. It’s as if a weight has been lifted. I feel there’s been a sea change, something in the wind, I dunno. Something. Women’s intuition?
    We’re going to win, and I _don’t_ think it will be a squeaker. I think McCain will do 300+ EVs. 311 is my final call on that, with my little RCP widget to help.

    Bill Whittle and Spengler are the smartest writers I know. They have both written definitive columns on why Obama will lose, and I still believe them, even long after they were written and a lot has changed, the fundamentals remain so:
    Spengler’s: Why Obama Will Lose (written during the Dem convention)

  96. Dem Grrrrl!
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:45 pm [Reply]


  97. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:51 pm [Reply]

    96 Anonymous — I appreciate that people have different political beliefs and different leanings and priorities, but I don’t think either of the major-party candidates “hate America and everything it stands for.” That’s just silly.

    Is Obama the shrewdest communist infiltrator in the history of ever, or is he merely a young politician who belongs to the left wing of the Democratic party?

  98. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:51 pm [Reply]

    My temptation to rant uncontrollably is strong, but I will refrain. Instead, here is how I envision McCain’s concession speech tonight.

  99. tuna
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:52 pm [Reply]

    besides tehfact tht i can’t actually vote, i think none of the candidates are thr right person to lead this country at this present time. so either some one finds me a ticket with both a conservative democrat and liberal republican or i don’t vote.

  100. Chris the Third Baseman
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:52 pm [Reply]

    Vote for Mike Patterson, or Lynn will start writing original comics again. AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!
    No Please! Vote for Mike, and save our eyeballs!

  101. Naked Bunny with a Whip
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:55 pm [Reply]

    glib, urbane slickster who hates them and hates America and everything it stands for.

    Wow, that’s just breathtakingly insane. Explains everything that follows, though.

  102. Anonymous
    November 4th, 2008 at 12:56 pm [Reply]

    In the great tradition of the Onion:

    The candidate for my party is superior to the candidate from your party. On election day, the candidate from my party shall soundly trounce the candidate from your party, due to their far more reasonable, moral, and firmer stances on a wide variety of important and pertinent issues.

    Also, have you seen the vice-presidential candidate for your party? That vice-presidential candidate was a lack-luster and controversial pick that calls into question your candidate’s wisdom.

    Also, your candidate has been associated with a number of controversial people, also casting your candidates character into a disavory light.

    By contrast, my candidate represents the ideal I cling to of the direction this country should move in. A vote for my candidate is the only logical and reasonable choice, whereas a vote for your candidate is influenced solely by baser and vaguer emotions and urges. A wide number of important national figures have already endorsed my candidate and repudiated yours, hence, the illogical nature of your choice is further highlighted.

    Lastly, due to my candidate’s connection and appeal to the average members of our shared country, my candidate shall be assured victory when the poles close on election day. I shall cheer and you shall despair. So, to repeat once more, the candidate from my party is superior to the candidate from your party!

  103. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:00 pm [Reply]

    98 SQB
    Wait, there’s no Anti-american ticket? Then who the hell did I vote for this morning?

  104. canadian pinko
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:04 pm [Reply]

    regarding 96 — while I do not agree with much of the content of your post I think it’s fair to expect that McCain will have stronger support than the last polls indicated.

    To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld: People will vote for known knowns and known unknowns rather than unknown unknowns. I feel lots pf people will go for McCain because he is the [margo quote]safe[\margo quote] choice.

    95 O’Shenko — Why we had a “progressive conservative” party in Canada for many many years! Best of both worlds.

  105. Naked Bunny with a Whip
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:05 pm [Reply]

    Wait, there’s no Anti-american ticket?

    Nope, just the Differently-Americaned.

    Then who the hell did I vote for this morning?

    I hope to hell it wasn’t Dick Tracy.

  106. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:05 pm [Reply]

    Another thing that occurs to me re accusations of anti-Americanism or “hating America”:

    I’m Canadian. At the federal level, we’ve had a political party since the early 1990s that promotes Quebec sovereignty and runs candidates only in that province. Whatever your feelings are on Quebec separatism (and I realize that if you’re not Canadian, you’ve probably never thought about it before), I actually don’t think it’s accurate to describe even an explicitly secessionist party as “hating” their country, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

  107. Erik Swanson
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:06 pm [Reply]

    I really, really love the right-wingers like “anonymous” who keep talking themselves into their secret lead. I assume they blogged about Obama secretly brainwashing the hardcore republicans in Dixville Notch into voting democratic for the first time in 40 years. Truly amazing.

    I dunno, I get upset anytime people make politics off-limits. Partly because politics are everything, in a sense. Maybe it’s annoying to deal with trolls and flame wars for a week or two every four years. And maybe there would be less vitriol if we hadn’t witnessed our government doing horrible horrible things for eight years.

    Torture. Lies. Coverups. A trillion spent on an unneccesary war and another trillion to bail out wall street bankers. Not to mention Souljah Boy and Hannah Montana. It’s been a rough, rough eight years.

    I like democracy. I like politics. I know anonymous yelling on the internet does more harm than good. But the stakes are really high.

    I, for one, think the world would be a better place if Marmaduke spread some wealth. Y’know?

  108. migellito
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:08 pm [Reply]

    Anybody who’s able to get themselves elected president probably isn’t someone we’d want in charge of a country.

    That said though, McCain just really gives me that icky vibe, like he might pull off a mask when he’s alone late at night, only to look into the camera with the face of some antediluvian horror. On the scifi channel.

    So, yeah, I’m kind of basing my vote on the idea that one of the candidates has ‘the Innsmouth look.’

  109. UncleJeff
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:12 pm [Reply]

    99: Dean Booth: My favorite campaign concession speech of all time was for an unsuccessful candidate for governor in Wisconsin back in the mid-1980s.
    He was an insurance company owner and not used to getting beaten for anything.
    With the race well in hand for his opponent, the candidate took the stand before his cheering backers and said “I lost and it’s all your fault.”
    And then went on to berate the party faithful for not raising enough money, campaigning hard enough or being loyal enough to him.
    The place was half empty before he ended his rant.

  110. Canaduck
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:12 pm [Reply]

    You’re wrong! You’re all wrong! Everybody loses!

  111. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:17 pm [Reply]

    UncleJeff, That’s what I expect from McCain tonight, but in a Vera thought-bubble way.

  112. Paul K
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:18 pm [Reply]

    Anyone notice the peace symbol pie chart on Alices computer in the second panel of “Sally Forth”?

  113. migellito
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:18 pm [Reply]

    110- that’s hilarious!!

    And remember:
    Vote early! Vote often!

  114. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:22 pm [Reply]

    106 Naked Bunny
    Well, he did promise to make sure 90% of criminals die violently, thereby taking a lot of pressure off our courts and prisons.
    I admit, his speeches are a bit redundant.

  115. farnsworth
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:22 pm [Reply]

    Well, crap.

    The Green Party is not on the ballot in Oklahoma, and there is no provision for a write-in.

    So I was stuck voting for the glib slickster who hates America.


  116. Paul K
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:28 pm [Reply]

    Is there a Doc Weasel in the house? Looks like someone found the public library…wait a minute, public library? A place that runs on tax money and lets people read books free of charge? Sounds like a ol’ Ben Franklin was a socialist.

  117. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:43 pm [Reply]

    #107 – I’m a Yankee ex-pat living in Quebec, and I have thought about it and argued about it.
    Ah…Meech Lake, Charlottestown.
    Parizeau almost made it happen in ’95. However, It’s my op that Canada stay together.
    Even Vermont and New Jersey wanted to secede from the US at one point, and Virginia is still called a Commonwealth. Interesting stuff.

  118. Calico
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:44 pm [Reply]

    #103 – That would be Polls, not Poles.
    Unless you are referring to the natural magnetic ones.

  119. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:45 pm [Reply]

    #48 anonymous: I’m in the same position as your daughter. I’m close to graduating and scared to death. I don’t want to live with my parents, I want to be independent and earn my own keep. But can I get a job? I worry about it every day. You grow up thinking that you’re going to live a better life than your parents because that has been the trend for along time. And honestly, what’s worse is I’m not sure either candidate can help my current situation. I voted, but I’m still questioning if I made the right choice.

  120. David
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:48 pm [Reply]

    All I can say about the low approval of Congress is that my Senators, A and B, and my Representative, C, from the great state of (insert name here) are the good ones, and it’s all those worthless congresspeople from all the other states who are screwing things up.

    And have you noticed that if you take OBAMA, turn the B 90 degrees CW, slice off the new bottom, and then flip the M over, it kinda looks like OTTAWA? There’s your sign to move to Canada.

  121. Rusty
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:50 pm [Reply]

    The most disturbing thing about this election cycle was the Cathy strip from a couple of days ago where the women working at a retail store had little American Flags stuck out of their hairdos to indicate it was an election day sale. Seriously, what world does Guisewhite live in?

    By way of election talk, my first presidential vote was for John Anderson in 1980, because I saw the need for a viable third party in American politics. sigh.

  122. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:50 pm [Reply]

    #108 Erik Swanson: I enjoy free speech as much as everyone else, but that doesn’t mean I think politics belongs in every single facet of life. I come on these boards to read about comics. I see people arguing about politics, being petty jerks to each other practically everywhere else. We don’t need it here. This blog was created for a specific purpose – to discuss and mock comics. If having flame wars about candidates detracts from that, it shouldn’t be allowed on this specific blog. There is freedom of speech, but there’s also something called respect. Politics are important, but they are NOT everywhere, and they shouldn’t be shoved into literally every facet of life, even the blog about comics.

    I’m glad Josh gave us this thread, but I don’t think it was necessary. Some people need to grow up and learn self-control when it comes to these things.

  123. Paul K
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:51 pm [Reply]

    Rusty- I couldn’t vote but I tried to campain for Ross Perot when I was a freshman in High School because I also wanted a third party…there was nobody though working for him at the polls so I ended up helping the Clinton people.

  124. DavidMac
    November 4th, 2008 at 1:52 pm [Reply]

    JOSH: This is the last day to suck up to Obama. When he takes office in January ’09, and you haven’t paid sufficient homage to “The Messiah”, you’ll soon come under the auspices of the so-called “Fairness Doctrine”, which means you’ll have to allow equal blog-space to Crankshaft, MW, MT and FOOB-lovers across the nation.

    You’ve been warned.

  125. Marvin's Mom
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:01 pm [Reply]


    I bought new hamster for my classroom today. I had a choice between a brown one and a white one. I chose the brown one and named him “O-ham-a.” YAY

    We went to the rally last night in Manassas, VA. It was quite an adventure, with the baby and 100,000 people. As my husband would say (over and over), “this isn’t a rally, it’s a goddamn humanitarian crisis.” Glad I can say I was there for the very last speech, though…

  126. DavidMac
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:01 pm [Reply]

    LINDSEY (at 1:50 PM): ” . . . doesn’t mean I think politics belongs in every single facet of life. Some people need to grow up and learn self-control when it comes to these things.”

    And if we DON’T learn political speech self-control, I’m sure you’ll step in and set us straight. Thank God for people like you who will keep us wayward political free-speechers on the right path.

  127. Spaceman Spiff
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:04 pm [Reply]

    #122 Rusty:

    Far be it from me to defend Guisewhite, but I’m afraid that world is all-too-real. You must not get to flyover country that often – lucky you. Speaking as someone stuck in Red America, I can’t wait to get back to Effete Urban Liberal Blue America!

    BTW, ya know what might be interesting? A poll of Curmudgeon readers’ politics – left, right, center, other, etc. I believe the separation of comics and politics, but as long as we’re here in this thread…

  128. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:13 pm [Reply]

    I think is the flame-wars and the petty, jerkiness, rather than political discussion that is the issue.

    That said, I am amazed I haven’t seen a Mary Worth flame-war in the comments section yet.

    How can I make that possible?

    Oh, and John McCain didn’t have the luxury of reading FBOW while he spent 5 years as POW in Hanoi.

  129. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:14 pm [Reply]

    Correction: petty jerkiness. The comma wasn’t necessary.

  130. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:15 pm [Reply]

    Skullturf@90 – You rule!

    McCain is the “Plugger” Eisenhower.

    In today’s world Ike would be called a “socialist libtard.”

    But hey, McCain crashed five jets and was captured due to his own stupidity. He’s a HERO!

    He’s got a temper! He’s a MAVERICK! He picked a dipshit as his V.P. VOTE PALIN/McCain

  131. Donkey Hotey
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:23 pm [Reply]

    The First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. [emphasis mine].” It continually infuriates me to see idiot after idiot insist that means they have the right to have their opinion pieces/letters to the editor/blog posts published in privately owned media outlets, including online media. NOTE TO THE IDIOTS: THE OWNERS OF NEWSPAPERS AND BLOGS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT THEY DO AND DO NOT WANT IN THEIR PUBLICATIONS.

    Thank you.

  132. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:24 pm [Reply]

    Aging Hipster@129

    Considering the FBOW wasn’t syndicated till 1979 methinks your John McCain/Hanoi whine is CRAP.

    However, feel free to snivel away at anything and everything that offends you. Please have the decency to do a basic fact check beforehand, those of us who are smart would appreciate it.

  133. Humbert
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:24 pm [Reply]

    I had a hard time choosing between Nader and Bob Barr. Ultimately I decided to go with a write-in vote for Lyndon LaRouche. I think he’s got a real chance to win this year!

  134. Shermy Glamrocker
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:26 pm [Reply]

    Sarah Palin repeatedly engaged in thespian encounters when younger.

    Why did Dick Nixon watch “Deep Throat” more than 20 times? Because he couldn’t get it down Pat.

    Did you notice that “Obama” is only one letter away from that terrorist dude?

    As for me, Fuzzy Whitehead-Donny Most in ’08.

  135. nil zed
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:27 pm [Reply]

    # Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^) says:
    You grow up thinking that you’re going to live a better life than your parents because that has been the trend for along time.

    By the time you are your parents age, you are very likely to be doing as well as they are. Yes, it will be rough for a while, but it is supposed to be. You can’t expect to live a mid-career, middle-class, middle-aged income and lifestyle when you are newly hired and young, why would you?

    More than likely, the advantages they have given you will propel you along the same road they are on.

    I speak as someone whose parents did poorly enough that ‘doing better than’ was pretty much ineveitable: and I have observed through the years many people who, because of their parents efforts, begin already far enough ahead of the game that if they do half as well, they are probably too well off to complain. And yet, complain they do.

  136. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:29 pm [Reply]

    129 Aging Hipster
    Mary Worth tells it like it is – it’s just that some politically correct people (and the mainstream media) don’t approve of a lone voice bravely speaking out against this modern anything-goes mentality. Anyone against Mary should just crawl back under the stone from whence they came.

    How’s that? Flame away, folks

  137. ms. docweasel
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:30 pm [Reply]

    96 skullbeavis

    Obama may not be unAmerican, but he is indisputably a racist who tried to ensure his daughters were instilled with a healthy prejudice against white people.

    Stupid me, I thought that race relations were improving and each generation was getting more and more blind to race. Imagine my surprise to find that black churches across the country preach racist hate speech against white people every week, and black congregations cheer the slurs and jeer at the greedy, murderous, evil white people, who are all equally guilty by virtue of the color of our evil, white skin.

    It would also be safe to assume that Obama in some measure agrees that America should be damned and US Gov buildings deserved to be bombed.

    I’ve never feared for my country before this election. HIllary I can’t stand, but the country would have survived. If, for some reason, the country does elect this racist, bigoted, elitist, lying, corrupt, socialist charlatan, there will be a reckoning. The press and MSM will also pay a price once Obama’s lies and corruption become to blatant to continue to cover up.

    I still have hope for the better angels of the American public’s nature, however, and the fundamental bias of the press and pollsters, as well as their tendency to cry “racist” to anyone who doesn’t vote for the racist, causing people to refuse to answer pollsters, or else lie to them.

  138. Jim
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:32 pm [Reply]

    I voted for Bob Barr, the libertarian candidate. The way I see it, we’re screwed no matter who gets into office. So I had to vote for the guy who’ll screw us over the least.

  139. Naked Bunny with a Whip
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:35 pm [Reply]

    Stupid me

    Thanks for saving us the effort.

  140. Corby
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:36 pm [Reply]

    Heh. After that earlier fiasco in the comments this week, I was just WAITING for docweasel to show up. It’s all downhill from here, folks.

  141. Dji
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:38 pm [Reply]

    Wow. This is a well-titled entry.

    Peee-yew. For all of you spinning the commie/socialist/conspiracy stuff, just remember the McDonald’s conspiracy theorem: McDonald’s is a fairly well-organized company, and if your conspiracy theory requires better organization and more secrecy than the running of McDonald’s, it’s probably not real.

    Now I’m going to spam the thread with something off topic. Hey, y’all, isn’t Spider-Man boring? Yeah!

  142. UncleJeff
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:41 pm [Reply]

    125 DavidMac: The Fairness Doctrine refers to an FCC policy regarding broadcasters that required radio and television stations to at least give a chance for people with political views different than those favored by the owners of the stations and their hosts to express those views. It differs from the Equal Time Doctrine where the FCC decided that candidates who were directly attacked in editorials by the broadcaster should be given an equal amount of time to give their “side of the story”. Both policies were revoked in the 1980s as part of an industry-wide deregulation that greatly changed the broadcast business for good and for bad.
    For the other readers wondering why this troll would inject this issue, it’s because right wing radio talk hosts are claiming that Democrats want to “destroy” their business by giving damn liberals a chance to respond to syndicated and local talk show hosts and requiring broadcast station owners to show that there is this opportunity. As a broadcaster of more than 35 years of experience, I can tell you of radio talk shows where the host allows on the air only callers he knows will agree with him or ones he thinks he can shout down, make to appear as fools or provoke into wrath.
    And yes, Donkey Hotey, you’re right. The federal government does not have any say in the content of the printed word on paper or in blogs. That’s all controlled by private enterprise which is, of course, devoted to protecting the rights of all people to their opinions.

  143. blueberrygrrrl
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:43 pm [Reply]

    The important question is: Who is running *against* Mike Patterson, and how can I vote for him/her?

  144. TGrum
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:43 pm [Reply]

    I vote by early ballot, have done so since after Clinton’s first election. They had “kids’ vote” at the poll and I have little tolerance for uncontrolled kids. I grew impatient and irritated at standing in the long line with all of them running back and forth. Another thing that irritated me was they had bumperstickers and buttons of their candidate (or more likely their parents’) plastered all over them. Campaigning is illegal at the polls but since these were kids, the authorities let them slide.

    I almost wrote in Pat Paulsen’s name this time around.

    #3. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed, good to hear about the tribute. I just bought tickets last night to see the Smothers Brothers in Phoenix in January. I’m looking forward to it. Missed them last time around when they were playing a casino in the area as I dragged my feet too long to get a ticket, so I snatched them up this time on the first day of sales. Not in the pit, but the third row following that. My favorite routine of theirs when I was a kid was “Chocolate.”

  145. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:46 pm [Reply]

    138 ms. doc
    I suppose I’ll regret this, but:
    How do you personally know “that black churches across the country preach racist hate speech?” Have you attended any? What kind of “black” churches? Baptist? Methodist?
    You’re right that leveling charges of racism is quite serious and shouldn’t be done lightly? So why are you doing it?

  146. Zach
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:47 pm [Reply]

    Okay, I’ve stayed silent for far too long, but considering that this will get lost in the crowd, I’ve got to say it.


    Some people are treating him as a Christ-like figure, and I just don’t get it.

    He has no morals. He pretends to be poor, he married a racist, he attended a racist church, which I could forgive if he hadn’t then made it clear that he thinks religion is for the ignorant and afraid.

    His fundraising was deliberately set up with all security protocols disabled so who knows how many of his donations were fraudulent donations from people not legally allowed to donate.

    and worst of all, he can’t even cover it up correctly! He can’t play the political game so, even if his motives are pure, he can’t get anything done.

    I mean, geez, why do people idolize this guy so much? Why does anyone think he is superior to McCain, as opposed to on the same level?

    And, now, a special shout out to Gunther from the comic strip Curtis: So you would vote for a guy you don’t want as president simply because there are other people who won’t vote for the guy you don’t want as president for the wrong reasons? yeahbuhwhuh?

  147. AMC
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:49 pm [Reply]

    Those who think the two major parties are very different has very little experience regarding politics outside the United States.

    Each U.S. political party – when rational – seeks to craft its policies to appeal to 51% of the voters. All the posturing regarding the shining ideals of each party is just . . . posturing.

    Even on so called “core” issues, politicians on each party flip-flop, shade, and deliberately obscure their views. The better to attract independent voters who don’t share all of their party’s views.

    In many ways, the disputes are so vicious because the differences are so small.

  148. Monkey David
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:49 pm [Reply]

    #1 Restless Mouse–I love that your dad was mad at Pat Paulsen. Such a generation gap–now humor and politics are so intertwined that a good chunk of the electorate gets their news from the Daily Show.

    Of course, I also listen to old time radio on XM, and they’ve been playing the “Gracie for President” episodes of the old George Burns/Gracie Allen show, from 1940. I wonder if my grandpa was mad about that. Then again, he probably would have preferred Gracie to FDR.

  149. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:52 pm [Reply]

    138 ms docweasel — If you’re going to be scared of Obama, then be scared of him for more realistic, prosaic reasons, such as his youth and inexperience. (In fact, to be totally honest, even though I usually tend to support the Democrats more than the Republicans, I must admit that Obama’s youth and newness does give me a tiny amount of trepidation.)

    But do you really honestly believe he approves of bombing US government buildings? If so, I thank my lucky stars that 99.9 percent of your compatriots are more reasonable than that.

  150. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:56 pm [Reply]

    When a disadvantaged minority works together for the betterment of their place in society, that’s part of democracy. Like the gay rights movement. Or the feminist movement. Or the anti-racist movement.

    Sexism is working against the rights of women. Homophobia is working against, or discriminating against GLB people. Racism is discriminating against black people, people of asian descent, native americans or other racial minorities.

    So, in short, working to end discrimination against black people is the opposite of racism.

    There are those who argue that we should pretend racism doesn’t exist. But, like many problems, it doesn’t go away when ignored. It gets worse.

    So, for the proponents of stick-your-head-in-the-sand, talking about racism is, itself, racism. Whereas, allowing things to get worse is, in their view, anti-racist.

    Up is down. Left is right.

    I thought there were going to be bannings?

  151. Red Greenback
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:57 pm [Reply]

    From a recent Mike Patterson stump speech: “Ned, where are you? Is Ned here with us today? Ned, I thought you were here today,” *crickets* “Alright, well, you’re all Ned the Toilet Clogger so all of you stand up!”

  152. The Spectacular Spider-Brick
    November 4th, 2008 at 2:59 pm [Reply]

    The First Amendment gives Americans the right to believe, say, and write anything they like. It does not force the press (newspapers, TV stations, or – ahem – blog owners) to give them a forum to do so. Nor does it protect them from being rightly ridiculed if they ignorantly cry “censorship” when they are denied the soapbox they crave.

  153. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:02 pm [Reply]

    147 Zach — surely Obama’s religious beliefs are more nuanced than that. It’s true that he has made some remarks about people clinging to religion when they are desperate, but remember that he also made a conscious choice to be baptized into a Christian church as an adult. Sure, he may have associated with some controversial people (and I’ll admit that there are a lot of details I don’t know there), but I really don’t believe he has contempt for religious people.

  154. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:03 pm [Reply]

    Andy Panderer@133

    Sorry, forgot the sarcasm tag. Personally, I don’t think being a POW automatically qualifies anyone to be president.

    John McCain had earned my respect and my gratitude, but he didn’t earn my vote.

    Oh, and the respect thing, not so much after the way he ran his campaign.

  155. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:05 pm [Reply]

    So, I have a little thing I do when looking at the candidates…

    Which of their spouses would I most want to share an evening of dinner and conversation with?

    Which one would I take fishing?

    If I woke up in a drunken stupor to find the candidate fucking my ass with the relish and abandon of a child on Christmas morning, whom would I want to see staring at me in the mirror on top of the nightstand?

    Which one of the candidates would I share a beer with the morning after said ass fucking?

    For me, the answers are: Michelle Obama, John McCain, John McCain, and John McCain.

    That said, I had no choice but to cast my vote this morning for Barack Obama.

  156. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:07 pm [Reply]

    @136 Nil zed: Thanks! To be honest, I don’t have huge dreams at this point. I want a job I’m happy with and enough money to get by. I don’t even want a house. I know that I will probably achieve these goals, but I can’t help freaking out a little :)

    I’m not going to say who I voted for, but I will say it was very hard to me to choose. I am a moderate. I used to be conservative but as I became more religious it put me more towards the middle (I know that sounds weird to some folk, but that’s what happened!). I truly believe that both candidates have the potential to do great things for this country, and also the potential to make it worse. It’s just a matter of how they go about it.

    I feel like McCain has the practical experience to get us out of this mess if he will stay true to himself and the people of the country and not listen to the partisan morons in Washington that screwed up George Bush. If he can stay strong and work towards benefiting the country rather than himself or his own party, I think he could pull us out of this mess. However, the past 8 years have (understandably) made me wary of the republican party, even though I am a republican. It’s not fair to McCain to assume he’s Bush #2 (ok, 3), but that fear is always there. Another downside to electing McCain is that he has the practical ability to get us out, and not the ability to inspire. I want a president I can be proud of.

    Obama, on the other hand, is the opposite. He is inspiring and I think I would feel proud to have him as our president – but I’m not sure he has the experience to make much of an impact on the current situation. If he hopes to help this country he will have to surround himself with a LOT of people who know what they’re doing – if he tries to go at it alone he will be crushed.

    As for policies, both candidates have an equal amount of policies I agree with and disagree with. I’m worried that McCain isn’t going to do enough to help improve the economy, but I’m worried that Obama is going to do too much to regulate it. I’m worried that in a couple of years I will no longer have health insurance and therefore no health care, but I’m also worried about the impact universal health care will have on the economy and the ability to get care in a timely manner.

    In the end, it was a matter of choosing between (in my opinion) practical experience and inspiration. I think that McCain has a higher chance of getting us out of the current mess, BUT I feel that if Obama is elected, if he DOES benefit this country it will be much more than McCain could ever do.

    I made my choice, and I’m still not sure if it’s the right one. I filled out the entire ballot before I went to vote for the president and even then I had no idea who I should vote for. I’ve been trying all year to stay informed on the issues but it really didn’t help me – as a moderate, I believe that both ways will work. I almost envy the people who say, “THIS WAY IS THE ONLY WAY, IF IT DOESN’T WORK I’M LEAVING THE COUNTRY” because at least they know, or think they know. I really don’t. I hope my choice was the right one.

  157. fashion police
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:07 pm [Reply]

    7 V:
    How does the All Blacks not winning the World Cup affect the election?

    88 Naked Bunny:
    Wear a skirt.

  158. Zach
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm [Reply]

    154-Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    I’m inclined to believe you, except for the fact that he said it, and when called upon did not recant or clarify his statement, just gave an insincere “I’m sorry you twisted my words by taking them at face value” apology.

    Which goes to what I was saying about being able to maneuver politically: He could have just claimed he made a mistake in phrasing.

  159. Rusty
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:12 pm [Reply]

    Dingo, I didn’t know you enjoyed fishing.

  160. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:12 pm [Reply]

    152 PCOTW!! (Political comment of the week)

  161. gnome de blog
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:13 pm [Reply]

    LuAnn’s departing for South Dakota, maybe never to return, and all you guys can talk about is politics!?

  162. Paul K
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:14 pm [Reply]

    “He has no morals. He pretends to be poor, he married a racist,”
    OK…this may be the most idiotic thing posted here so far.
    First you say he has no morals….this is on it’s face a lie. He may have low moral standards, in your opinion but NO morals? Come on.
    “Pretends to be poor”? He said in a debate, that he does pretty well, and that’s why he doesn’t mind paying more taxes. Please site some examples where he pretends to be poor.
    “Married a racist”….This is the dumbest statement, considering Obama is both black and white, so his wife must hate some part of him…unless your saying she hates, I don’t know asians?
    Would love to hear from you Zach on some facts to back up your claims….chances are we won’t.
    And as for the Christ like figure that was the Republicans who made that ad that positioned him as “the one”..kinda flattering really.
    And better than their other ads that try to instill fear in the populace, just like Bush…

  163. Red Greenback
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:14 pm [Reply]

    me @ 152: Doggonnit!, that was supposed to read “Ned the Futility Symbol”

  164. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:17 pm [Reply]

    @127 DanidMac: I think you misunderstood my meaning. I didn’t mean that people should never be allowed to state their opinions, etc. But I can’t help rolling my eyes at people who insist on inserting political beliefs into every discussion. I’m an avid gamer, and I might be in a forum about gaming and someone will make a thread “THE EVIL KING = BUSH???? THE LAND OF THE DEAD = IRAQ?” That bothers me. I will never, ever tell you you can’t state your opinions, but it’s my preference that you do it in a mature manner and obey the rules of the forum on which you’re posting. If that makes me a horrible person who restricts free speech, well, fine. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for people to act like adults rather than children. Sometimes I think politics brings out the little, screaming kid in all of us. When I say, “grow up,” I mean, “debate like an adult, presenting evidence without calling your opponents names.” But I guess that’s too much to ask. If you feel like I’m impeding on your ability to be immature, then you are free to ignore me. That’s the other aspect to the freedom of speech – you have the freedom to say what you want, but I have the freedom to react to it in whatever way I want. These are my opinions, and if you disagree, ok. If you want to flame me, well, this is the place to do it I guess.

  165. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:18 pm [Reply]

    *Davidmac that should have said ^_^. I blame the new keyboard!!!

  166. Chyron HR
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:18 pm [Reply]

    #138 ms. docweasel – There will be a reckoning.

    Let me guess, a Tim McVeigh-style reckoning?

    Not that white-skinned right-wingers hate America or approve of blowing up government buildings, of course.

  167. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:20 pm [Reply]

    Obama’s words, as best as I can find them (I’m guessing these are the remarks you’re referring to) are “And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.” (talking about small-town Pennsylvania in San Francisco in April)

    Sure, I see why a lot of folks perceived this as out-of-touch or even a bit condescending toward small-town Middle America. But I don’t think it means Obama believes religion is for the “ignorant”.

    Maybe I’m just an optimist, but I’d like to think it’s possible for someone both to be a religious person himself, and also to be aware of the simple truth that “clinging” to religion (though it might not be the greatest word choice) is a very human way of coping with uncertainty and insecurity.

  168. The Spectacular Spider-Brick
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:21 pm [Reply]

    What I would like to ask some McCain supporter to explain, in rational, non-emotional, and understandable terms, is what being a POW in Vietnam has to do with being qualified to be President. Seriously, this isn’t a dig, I’d like someone to explain how he gets from “spent 5 years being tortured” to “understands war, foreign policy and how to catch Osama bin Laden.”

  169. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:26 pm [Reply]

    #169 Spectacular Spider-Brick – I’m not a McCain supporter or anything, but I think it shows a strength and ability to cope under pressure, something you definitely need as a president. I don’t think it has anything to do with those things you listed, though. I mean, I guess you could argue that having been a POW McCain has seen the uglier side of war, knows what goes on there, has been hurt at the hands of other countries – an experience that Obama does not have. But I’m not sure how much that experience could help his presidency. It also gives him another way of thinking, a way to see things from another perspective that Obama doesn’t have. It is definitely an advantage. But again, do I think that is the one thing that would make McCain an uber awesome president and Obama a terrible one? No, it’s just one factor, one advantage (if you can call being tortured for 5 years an advantage).

  170. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:31 pm [Reply]

    Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_here ^):
    May I say that your posts have been honest, humble, lucid, straightforward and non-inflammatory.
    What the hell is wrong with you?

  171. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:33 pm [Reply]

    LOL @ Lake Eerie 171.

    I agree. I’m impressed that we can all have this discussion.

  172. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:37 pm [Reply]

    #171 Lake Eerie: I am but a young’un, soon to graduate college. I am not yet jaded to the horrible ways of the world. I am still optimistic! But in 12 years I will no doubt be a hallow shell, unable to love, unable to look on the bright side of life, unable to LIVE. *sob* When I graduate and find out that a linguistics/French double major doesn’t translate into a career it will all go away!

  173. Zach
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:38 pm [Reply]


    First of all, “no morals” was my thesis statement. And we very clearly have different definitions of “morals.”
    Second of all, you’re right, I phrased that poorly. I should have said “pretends to have been poor.”
    And thirdly, have you read Michelle Obama’s thesis? It’s in favor of segregation. And it’s funny how, considering that everybody is so quick to classify him as entirely black, you assume his wife doesn’t do the same thing.

    Have you been reading Edge City? Y’know, the storyline where the mother kicked her husband out of the house for saying Obama’s “just another candidate?” how about the many other comics that have similiar portrayals?
    How many democrats expressing their opinion on Obama have you read, that you don’t see any of the people revering him as a messianic figure?

    As for the general tone of your post, is that a deliberate attempt to piss me off so that I either respond angrily or take the high road and simply refuse to respond, thus either way “proving” your point? Suffice it to say that I see no good outcome from continuing this discussion any further, so if you want to make more (factless) claims that you don’t think I will respond to, just remember that I told you this already.

  174. Different Dan
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:47 pm [Reply]

    #54 Skullturf – I think the opposite of “mitigating” would be “exacerbating”.

  175. Different Dan
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:48 pm [Reply]

    54? I meant 43. Good Lord.

  176. cartmansdad
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:52 pm [Reply]

    Anyone who wants to attack the social background of Obama better be careful with their facts and check out McCain’s history. Much like Bush, he rose to prominence based entirely on who his father and grandfather were – highly respected admirals in the Navy. McCain crashed not one but two jets before he ever went to Viet Nam, something that would have ensured the end of the career of a non-connected pilot. He has consistently relied on his family connections to advance his career. For more details on your beloved’s background check out this:

    Compare this to Obama, a man with no connections and an absentee father, who raised himself to the highest reaches of education, becoming the first black person to preside over the Harvard Law Review. Laurence Tribe, one of the premier legal scholars in the entire country and a professor at Harvard, called Obama “the brightest student I ever had!” I don’t think people even begin to appreciate what a stunning achievement that is.

    Now I personally am not down on McCain for using his family to advance himself. The problem is when people want to attack Obama’s personal life history and background story when any reasonably unbiased person can see who made more out of the little he was given – and that person is Barack Obama.

    The reason I would never vote for McCain is that he, like the rest of the Republican party, is so far up big businesses’ ass that they will never again see the light of day. McCain proved it years ago for his buddy Charles Keating. His party continues to prove it with their slavish and near-sighted devotion to deregulation. The result is the two most costly (to the average American) financial disasters in the last 50 years – the S&L crisis and the current financial crisis. Throw in the debacle in Iraq (Obama being the only major candidate to oppose same), and the right wing neo-conservative agenda has cost this country well over a trillion dollars in totally wasted funds, all of which went to their buddies in the S&L, banking, and military-industrial complex industries. If you want to be frightened by your own government, you don’t need to engage in completely unfounded speculation about what you think Obama will do, all you have to do is look at the past 20 years of neo-con rule.

  177. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:52 pm [Reply]

    173 Howabominable
    You’ll be fine. I graduated college at the beginning of the Clinton administration (yay, artificial symmetry) into a job market that didn’t seem all that interested in communications majors (ahem … fully aware that the governor of Alaska, VP candidate & possible future Presidential candidate was a communications major)

  178. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 3:54 pm [Reply]

    To quote that brilliant Broadway Musical,
    Avenue Q:

    Everyone’s a little bit racist, all right?

    Bigotry has never been exclusively white.

  179. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:00 pm [Reply]

    #179 Old School: When I was writing these posts I actually had that stuck in my head! I’ve been listening to songs from that musical from days!

  180. The Dead Acorn
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:01 pm [Reply]

    I voted for Obama.

    It’s not that I’m not racist, it’s just that I really REALLY hate old people.

  181. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:09 pm [Reply]

    172 SQB
    Funny thing is, this thread is much more civil than the one from Friday that started the whole mess (I checked on that one and decided I’d be re-de-lurking another time)

  182. dimestore lipstick
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:17 pm [Reply]

    I’ve got a political rant for you–I just found out that it is illegal to vote in the state of Wisconsin if you have placed a wager on the outcome of the election.

    If you think you are going to vote–don’t bet on it. Sounds like an appropriate slogan for Wisconsin.

    (Oh, don’t get pissy. I live there.)

  183. Red Greenback
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:20 pm [Reply]

    The last time I remember seeing a mug like Sarah Palin’s, it had Waylon Flowers’ hand stuck all up in it’s ass.

  184. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:25 pm [Reply]

    #180 – Lindsey – that CD is on heavy, heavy rotation in my car. And has been since I bought it in 2004 – my husband has grown completely sick of it and refers to it as “those damn muppets”.

  185. DaveyK
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:30 pm [Reply]

    Everyone who is voting like me is a well-informed and sober individual, not to mention right-thinking, and I mean that in an absolute and non-subjective sense.

    Everyone who is voting differently is a misinformed idiot with anti-American tendencies who cannot be trusted to pick the right cereal from the store shelf, let alone decide who will run the country.

  186. Dean Booth
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:31 pm [Reply]

    #156, Dingo: Were you influenced by the fact the McCain can’t lift his arms over his head?

  187. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:31 pm [Reply]

    Dead Acorn@181

    Atrios posted a pretty good poll a while back. People indicated that they were less likely to vote for someone over the age of 72 than a black candidate. It stuck with me because people were least likely to vote for an atheist.

  188. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:37 pm [Reply]

    183 dimestore
    How do they know? Do they have bookies on the state payroll?

  189. The Dead Acorn
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:42 pm [Reply]

    188 Aging Hipster: Yeah, I remember that poll. It seemed to me to be a somewhat reasonable outcome, as skin color really has nothing to do with performance as president, while advancing age definitely has consequences. (Not to say that the problems I percieve in McCain are due to age, but in general.) I don’t think a hesitancy to vote for someone because they’re in their 70s is as irrational as that based on gender or skin color.

    An atheist, though? They’ll get the key to the White House when they pry it from my cold, dead, noodly appendage.

  190. cartmansdad
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:46 pm [Reply]

    Place your bets!

  191. Master Soft Heart
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:49 pm [Reply]

    Hi, everybody. I heard this thread was about parlor tricks. I brought a deck of cards, if anyone is interested.

  192. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:50 pm [Reply]

    …I started to say something.

    I ended up with a 1400-word diatribe.

    I think I’ll spare everyone. :)

  193. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:50 pm [Reply]

    #187 Dean Booth: Well, that will keep him from looking ridiculous in a dance bar. God knows how many men of a certain age I’ve witnessed out on a dance floor with their hands above their heads looking as though they found their metaphorical tambourine from 1972 in the back of the attic and need to shake the cobwebs out of it. I don’t know why but McCain looks like he’d be an excellent lover. Maybe it’s because Cindy looks like a woman who wouldn’t settle for less than a nice fat cock by a midnight Charterstone pool. And the young McCain? Mmm…

    Doesn’t matter if he can’t lift his arms. I’ll ride him reverse cowboy ’til they can smell us in New Mexico!

    Obama looks like the type to use large words during sex:

    “Does that satisfy your inner needs?”

    “The pressure of your sphincter on my organ lends credence to the belief that in short time I will ejaculate immensely.”

    John McCain seems the type to just make Howard Dean-inspired grunts until the moment and then a simple “Take it, baby!”

  194. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:51 pm [Reply]

    Niall, did it involves William Howard Taft?

  195. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:52 pm [Reply]

    183. dimestore lipstick: a lot of misinformation has been going on the last few elections about “not allowed to vote if X”, such as if you have unpaid parking tickets or even if a family member has been convicted of a crime. The usual sanity check “How would they know??” applies; if the only answer is a paranoid response about The Government Knows All, discard it.

  196. Bootsy
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:53 pm [Reply]

    How Abominable (AKA Lindsey ^_^), you sound like a reasonable person. You express yourself well, and thank zeus, you recognize nuance and ambivalence. I wish more people could say, sometimes I feel this way, and sometimes I feel that way. Sometimes the first step to understanding is to say, “I don’t understand. Please tell me why you feel this way”. You give me hope for the future.

    That said, I would like whoever the president is to surround himself with people who have differing opinions on many topics. (He should also listen to those opinions and make what he will of them.) I don’t know anybody whose friends, families and acqaintances all think and feel the same way! I know mine don’t.

    Josh, thanks for putting up this thread to isolate the political stuff. I think I’ll stop reading here, and go to the threads about comics.

  197. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:58 pm [Reply]

    195. Dingo: Nope, I really don’t know anything about him, being Canadian. It was more a lot of rants on how I see certain things work and not work from our point of view. It had some good and bad said of many candidates, but mostly it was about the process. :)

    Of course, by now, many will go “I know who I want to vote for, and don’t try to change it”, and if just that was respected (as in: “I respect you for having a different opinion than mine even if I think you’re completely wrong, because I want you to respect me for having a different opinion than you”), so much pain would be lessened. But it’s more “I want you to respect my opinion” which is a completely kettle of wax, to mix metaphors as freely as Dick Locher mixes whatever substances makes him switch a character plot device name in mid-storyline done weeks if not months in advance so it can’t possibly be because of legal action once it’s published.

  198. Gabe
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:58 pm [Reply]

    No matter who wins, I hope crazies on both sides fulfill their promise to leave the country/hide in the hills.

    Hopefully wherever they go they don’t have internet access.

  199. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 4:58 pm [Reply]

    …completely different kettle of wax, is what I meant to say…

  200. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:00 pm [Reply]

    Sometimes I feel that Palin is stupid, and sometimes I feel that she is evil…Wait, I don’t think I’m doing it right.

  201. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:09 pm [Reply]

    194 Dingo
    I do believe you’ve won this thread, but I beg of you, how does Obama being a less satisfying partner make him better-qualified to be POTUS?

  202. Spaceman Spiff
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:10 pm [Reply]

    No, AH, you’re not doing it right. We all know that Palin is both stupid AND evil!

  203. Shiela Sternwell
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:11 pm [Reply]

    We have free speech in this country, don’t we?

    Oh, for fuck’s sake. Why doesn’t anyone really understand what the U.S. concept of “free speech” means? It has nothing to do with whether someone allows political content on their comics blog or not.

  204. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:14 pm [Reply]

    And another thing…why isn’t today a federal holiday?

  205. Gabe
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:14 pm [Reply]

    Given young McCain’s “Any hole will do” strategy in his early Navy days, Dingo may have had a shot.

  206. dimestore lipstick
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:17 pm [Reply]

    I generally agree, but in this particular instance, I believed it.

    Even if I didn’t trust the NPR fact-checkers, the guy they interviewed from the state board of elections was pretty convincing.

    And don’t speak of “sanity checks”–we are discussing Wisconsin here. We have far less sensible laws than that on the books ;)

  207. lesles
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:18 pm [Reply]

    #194 Dingo – why haven’t we seen you on the pundit rounds? that’s some of the most in depth analysis i’ve come across.

  208. Shiela Sternwell
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:20 pm [Reply]

    Oh, and when Obama wins, I’m going to dig out an old blog of mine just to post “DOCWEASEL, YOU MAY SUCK IT” in really, really big letters. Really big. I’ll have to include Zach and a few people on my town’s newspaper forums in the SUCK IT post as well.

  209. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:22 pm [Reply]

    So, I went to Starbucks for my free coffee, and one of the baristas was grumbling about how they have to give away free coffee to get people to vote.

    I about went over the counter. For one, I voted two weeks ago. For two, does Starbucks really think that highly of its coffee? Or that little of its clientele?

    OMG – I’m jonesing for some Ethiopian Yergacheffe – I’d best stand in line for two hours and cast a meaningless ballot so I can get my fix for free.

    I bet the people giving out free ice cream at Ben & Jerry’s tonight will be a lot nicer.

  210. britbike
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:23 pm [Reply]

    122 – Rusty
    My first presidential vote was for Anderson, too. Same reasoning. That makes two of us. I always wondered who the other one was.

  211. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:24 pm [Reply]

    209 Shiela
    No, no, no! Tomorrow will be the time for healing! For reaching across the aisle! For…
    Oh, never mind – tell them to suck it

  212. Signorina Cosa
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:25 pm [Reply]

    194 Dingo – No offense but I think you’re wrong. Even viagra won’t help that and Cindy is only concerned with her hair and makeup not getting mussed.

  213. tj
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:25 pm [Reply]

    “Off The Mark” made me chuckle today.

  214. lesles
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:26 pm [Reply]

    #207 dimestore lipstick – and did you realise that if you’re not a US citizen, you can’t vote? that’s outrageous. the amount of air time here devoted to every minute facet of the campaigns should give us the right to at least partial representation. if we’ve got to suffer through it too, it’s only fair we should get something out of it.

  215. RJE
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:31 pm [Reply]

    I live in Indianapolis, IN and after working my 8 hours last night (3rd shift) I went down at 8 this morning to my local Obama volunteer GOTV hub – mainly because, having already voted last week, I knew there was no way I was going to be able to either 1. sleep today and b. sit around and wait for results to come in at 6pm. I had to go DO something.

    To my surprise (and those of my fellow volunteers), when Barack Obama visited Indianapolis this morning, OUR GOTV hub was the one he chose to visit. A little over twenty volunteers got to meet the Senator up close, shake his hand (he shook hands with every single one of us) and speak to him a little bit. I had to bite my lip really hard to keep from crying when he came to me (although more of that may have been from not sleeping since 4 pm yesterday lol) – he was very warm, nice, easygoing and even made a few phone calls from the phone bank to people. I can ONLY imagine the look on their faces as they recieved a surprise call from Obama. He asked if I voted, and I said I had last week – it was the first time since 2000 (I turned 18 in 1998) and the best I’d ever felt about my vote, and that made him smile. He said our chances here were good, and I think they are too.

    It was such an uplifting experience…I’m still a little shaky about it. I’ll remember this for the rest of my life, I think.

    I still can’t sleep, and once I started almost falling asleep on the phones I came home, lol. I’ve been sitting here surfing through The Daily Kos and HuffPo and waiting for 6′o’clock to roll around so I can turn on the news and hopefully watch my 40-years-of-red state turn blue.

    I just thought I’d share. =)

  216. Andy Panderer
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:46 pm [Reply]


    For some reason your opinion about “morality” rings false.

  217. Occipital Lobe
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:46 pm [Reply]

    If the presidential candidates can beg for a line-item veto every term, why the heck can’t we plead for a line-item veto on the ballot? Say, for example, McCain/Biden … not necessarily in that order. Hey, there are worse ways we could go. (Like Huckabee/Palin, for example. And by “Huckabee” and “Palin”, I refer to the hero of “I Heart Huckabee’s” and Sir Galahad The Chaste, of course, so get your damn McCain signs offa my lawn.)

    So, with mere hours to go, the Maverick and the Rogue are closing in on Captain Milquetoast and his trusty sidekick, Gaffe-Boy. Who will win? (And much more importantly … who ya gonna vote for in ’12? By then, the legal challenges to the ’08 election should be finishing up.)

    (And if Al Franken wins in Minnesota, can a Chevy Chase candidacy be far behind? And would he get recalled after three weeks like he did last time?)

    Stephan Pastis for Poet Laureate! (Sorry, that’s all I got …)

  218. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:48 pm [Reply]

    Your candidate eats babies and washes in the blood of the innocent while using deception and sarcasm whereas my candidate cures all societal ills, causes our enimies to tremble, and fills us with prosperity. Vote, if you have the intestanal fortitude, vote!

  219. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:48 pm [Reply]

    Herbert Hoover’s a pussy!

  220. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:49 pm [Reply]

    There’s no reason to worry about 2012. According to the Mayan calendar, that’s when the world ends or Bobby Goldsboro stages a comeback. I’m not sure which would be worse.

  221. Aging Hipster
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:56 pm [Reply]

    Dingo — the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

  222. Alfred E. Neuman
    November 4th, 2008 at 5:56 pm [Reply]

    #158 fashion police— If the All Blacks ever win the World Cup, it will be a miracle. They play rugby, not soccer.

  223. lesles
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:01 pm [Reply]

    #223 Alfred E Neuman – there’s a rugby world cup. nz hasn’t won it since 1987. rugby devotees in aus and nz don’t even acknowledge the existence of soccer

  224. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:03 pm [Reply]

    Whereas we North Americans acknowledge neither the existence of rugby or soccer.


  225. gh
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:04 pm [Reply]

    #210 Old School Allie Cat –

    I stood in line for two hours and fifteen frickin’ minutes in a cold drizzle and Starbucks made me pay for the biscotti! I swear to god, I’m moving to Canada.

  226. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:05 pm [Reply]

    Ooooh! Oooh! I got one! I got one!

    You’re a G.O.Plugger if you use terms like “MSM,” “Main Streeter,” “Values-voter,” “Elitist,” or “Pro-American part of the country.”

    Dang, you Josh, why’d you have to open the door and let me do that?

  227. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:15 pm [Reply]

    I for one can’t wait for the pitbull to put on its lipstick and go back to the tundra over the bridge to nowhere.

    I get really ticked off at politicians who try to cram their morals and their religion down my throat and come off as superior to me when they’re sitting at home with unwed, pregnant teenage daughters. Let’s see how quickly Levi marries the harlot after the lost election.

  228. bats :[
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:20 pm [Reply]

    210. OSAC: free coffee? Wooo!
    Does anyone know if Chik-Fil-A is giving away free chicken strips for having voted? Ours in Tucson did that on Primary Tuesday…

  229. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:23 pm [Reply]

    bats, Chik-Fil-A is giving away chicken sandwiches.

  230. lesles
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:26 pm [Reply]

    something that’s really intrigued/amused/exasperated/horrified me in this campaign is the ludicrous brandishing of socialism as an insult. it’s hard to believe that it’s taken at all seriously by anyone. both candidates are so far up the oligarchy that neither of them would have the faintest idea or understanding of what socialism really is. for that matter, from what i’ve observed, they’re joined up there by the entire mainstream media, the elected representatives of both major parties and their party apparatus and most rabid supporters. none of them would recognise socialism if it took them ruggedly in the back of a panel van and drove off with the means of production.

    i’m totally used to being insulted or ridiculed by political opponents for being an actual socialist, but, please, i really don’t need to be associated with or defined by any of those dropkicks wrt the popular imagination.

  231. Old School Allie Cat
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:35 pm [Reply]

    #216 – RJE – I probably would have cried like a baby if I got to meet Obama. I live in Nashville, and during the debate at Belmont, I got choked up just hanging out on campus before the debate, with the other folks.

    #230 – Free Chick Fil A? Hmmmmm.

    Votership has definite benefits.

  232. Citric
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:40 pm [Reply]

    Taft in ’08!

  233. Al of the Christian Single Jungle Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:40 pm [Reply]

    229, 230 — Mmmmm, breaded chicken goodness…. too bad I voted on 10/20 and don’t get the little sticker that says I voted.

    Oh, and for my obligatory political rant — although I thoroughly despise everything that has led Josh to give us this one-day pass…

    Don’t blame me… I voted for Carter.

  234. odinthor
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:40 pm [Reply]

    211. britbike.

    122 – Rusty
    My first presidential vote was for Anderson, too. Same reasoning. That makes two of us. I always wondered who the other one was.

    John Anderson.

  235. spike
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:41 pm [Reply]

    #82 bats :[ : Thank you for a fantastic PSA. It was humorous, tasteful and well done as usual!

    Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^) (various posts): Fer a young'un, you seem to be wise beyond your years. Congratulations! It'll serve you well.

    #221 Dingo & #222 Aging Hipster: LOL! [Now I've got to get a towel and clean up the water I knocked over on my desk as I was laughing...But, thanks!]

  236. OtherOpus
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:45 pm [Reply]

    Re #2: There is a “none of the above” choice, which could potentially result in the election of new candidates: spoil your ballot. You have described exactly what the act of spoiling your ballot means.

  237. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:49 pm [Reply]

    James K Polk is out of control! It’s time for real change!

  238. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:50 pm [Reply]

    I’m spoiling a ballot at the very moment! Hand me wet-wipe, stat!

  239. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:52 pm [Reply]

    The dream ticket: William Jennings Bryan and Geraldine Ferraro.

  240. bats :[
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:55 pm [Reply]

    Hmm, I voted early but got the sticker, so I’m going to try my luck. A friend of mine is working the polls today (as she did at the primaries) and got all bent out of shape because she missed out…even though the polls close at 7 PM, at the primaries she was quickly nominated “Judge of the Opposing Party” because there weren’t enough workers, which added two hours to her very long day.

  241. Milo
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:58 pm [Reply]

    I want to get a Nader 08 sticker to put on my car, then tomorrow get a piece of white duct tape and put it over the 08 and write 12.

  242. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:20 pm [Reply]

    Remember the Maine!

  243. Stooges Woman :-)
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:31 pm [Reply]

    Every four years it’s the same – one candidate is the Only Hope for America while the other one is Satan Incarnate. Yet no matter who wins, I still have to get up and go to work tomorrow and life goes on pretty much the same. Very little really changes for the average citizen* no matter who gets in. (*I was going to say “the average Joe” but decided not to go there!)

  244. Al of the Christian Single Jungle Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:35 pm [Reply]

    Nixon in ’12 — He’s tanned, rested, ready, and embalmed.

  245. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:36 pm [Reply]

    It was 2AM and the hotel ballroom had cleared. John and Cindy made their way back to the hotel room. Two years. Two slogging years of life. Called every name in the book and some that hadn’t existed before. What if he had chosen Romney? What about Huckabee? Would there have been a difference?

    John loosened his tie and walked into the bathroom. Cold, cool water filled the sink and he placed his hands into it and splashed his face. Tomorrow morning he would return to being Senator McCain from Arizona. When his obituary was written ten years from now, the presidential election would be but a small footnote in the tenure of his life. He wiped his face and turned out the light.

    Entering the bedroom, he noticed a red silk scarf draped over the lamp next to the bed. Cindy lay amidst the sheets, semi-draped in the satiny goodness yet revealing her nakedness to him. The red light against her vibrant blonde pubic hair shone like Liberty’s torch, leading him toward freedom.

    She sat up, her firm pouty breasts slowly falling into place.

    “Come to bed, John.” she whispered. “Spread my honey walls with your gorgeous cock and fuck my pussy like it was the first time.”

    John gave her that smile. His wry smile. The one that said no matter what ills there may be in the world, they would face them together. He removed his shirt, and then his trousers. Cindy crept to the edge of the bed and placed her manicured fingers on the elastic of John’s boxers. She slowly pulled them down, allowing his ample manhood with its watering hole to glisten in the amber light.

    He leaned down, cupped her breasts in his hands, and kissed her. Life was filled with letdowns, and he had known many. Tonight was only another. But he had her and had her love and, in the end, that was all he wanted or needed.

  246. prospero
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:38 pm [Reply]

    Election Day music. As Robbie says, you all know the Doctor. We’re having a real problem with Chuck Todd talking about Ohio. If you believe W won Ohio in 2004 without Blackwell and Diebold, seek professional help.

    How is it that we got Rev. Wright ads in The Last Days and no Hagee? I mean, if the media “is” so in the bag for Obama, why has it been months since anybody heard about McCain’s rev that calls the Catholic Church ‘the Great Whore’?

    You know, it will be nice to have a Vice President that’s not a reptile thrall of the oil industry. Or was he actually running the oil industry?

    Fact is, it’s been an eight year nightmare of misgoverning by PNAC and the American Enterprise Institute, in a fucking Swiftboat World. Republicans can lie there asses off and claim large turnouts favor McOldFart, but it’s all over.

    Best argument for shitcanning the Electoral College? Pretzeldent W. It’s actually almost never made a difference, but I suppose the same argument holds for the Supreme Court.

    McCain’s campaign is lobbying to count alleged military absentee ballots in Virginia. Maybe the asshole could have voted for vets in the first place instead of sticking with the niggardly policies of the current misAdministration. They might have had timely postal service.

    Not with somebody else‘s. Remember when the election used to be about keeping you safe from terriss? Or Senner Obama? Or other words of more than two easily elidable syllables? Or using ‘hate’ as a noun when hatred is a perfectly excellent word? Or ‘torture’ as an intransitive verb? Seems to be the economy again.

    We live in South Carolina. People here are so dumb they think Lindsey Graham isn’t a bald-faced liar. Twenty minutes ago, we got a robocall asking us start with the idea that Barack Obama is ‘foreign’. The polls close in 90 minutes. We already voted, but who in the world did these idiots think they were going to influence?

  247. Andrew Leal
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:39 pm [Reply]

    #198, Niall:
    “to mix metaphors as freely as Dick Locher mixes whatever substances makes him switch a character plot device name in mid-storyline done weeks if not months in advance so it can’t possibly be because of legal action once it’s published.”

    That is a glorious clause. And now I have a Scots tune stuck in my head, only now it’s “The Robots Robbing Banks o’ Dick Locher”

  248. The Dead Acorn
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:44 pm [Reply]

    244 Stooges Woman: Very little really changes for the average citizen

    Lots has changed for tens of thousands of average citizens who happen(ed) to be a member of the armed services. Lots has changed for tomorrow’s generations who will be saddled with the current debt. Lots has changed for hundreds of thousands of other countries average citizens, who are now dead. I would argue that a Gore presidency would be just a tad different that the nightmare we’ve endured over the last 8 years.

  249. GreenCard
    November 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm [Reply]

    Why can’t docweasel ever talk about Obama without starting in on his kids? What the hell is up with that? Call him inexperienced, call him in the tank for the coal and corn lobby, call him an academic pencil-neck. But call HIM names, his little girls are just a couple of kids with an ambitious dad. Likewise, I hope nobody is going to say anything about Palin’s kids, who can’t help if their mom is reaching for the top. Hands off McCain’s kids, too– bad enough their dad has stolen the flip-flopper crown from the Democrats.
    I grew up in Louisiana, home of Huey Long– the most populist demagogue the American left has ever seen. Barack is a cross-the-aisle centrist. He taught law at the University of Chicago, home turf of Milton Friedman, the 20th Century champ of free-market economics. He knows how to play the political game– that’s why Virginia is blue, North Carolina, Indiana, and even ARIZONA are in play. Obama is a fierce competitor, and has campaigned circles around team McCain.
    But McCain was alot funnier on SNL. “The Sad Grandpa!” Heh.

  250. Mooncattie
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:02 pm [Reply]

    #99 Dean Booth – Help! Please Please Me and Tell Me Why, er, Where you got the live Beatles track from. Is it Shea?

  251. fashion police
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:03 pm [Reply]

    223 Alfred:
    Rugby has a World Cup, too. It was last held in Paris a year ago. South Africa won. I happened to be in town at the time (alas, I missed Fashion Week).

    The next Rugby World Cup will be held in New Zealand in 2011. As the home team, the All Blacks are the early-line favorite.

    You now know everything I know about international Rugby.

  252. prospero
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:09 pm [Reply]

    Well, we can only take McOldFart at his word. Cindy is a tarted up c-word. If her teats are anything but saggy dugs,medical science can take credit.

  253. gnome de blog
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:11 pm [Reply]

    For those of you who think “experience” is critical for a President, Abraham Lincoln served one (1) term – 2 years – in the U.S. House of Representatives.

  254. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:16 pm [Reply]

    GreenCard @ 250

    McCain WAS hysterical on SNL. In fact, he was the only thing funny on the show. If it weren’t for this election, their ratings would tank!.

  255. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:16 pm [Reply]

    #251, Mooncattle: Click on the YouTube logo in the center bottom — or just go to youtube and search for beatles loser.

  256. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:18 pm [Reply]

    P.S. It’s a video of them on stage in Paris, 1965.

  257. rhymes with puck
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:18 pm [Reply]

    “And remember, no matter how bad you thought this year’s election was, at least it didn’t involve Spider-Man.”

    Hey, even the comic strip version of Spider-Man has done more in his career than Obama.

  258. P
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:37 pm [Reply]

    Okay, the polls just closed in Ohio 7 minutes ago, and we are waiting for results.

  259. Mooncattie
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:39 pm [Reply]

    #257 Dean – Thank you!
    Sont des mots qui vont tres bien ensemble!
    (awaiting spell-check from Niall!)

  260. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:39 pm [Reply]

    this election wasn’t satisfying. i’d like to see more snacks on the ballot.

  261. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:43 pm [Reply]

    I bet someone like Osama bin Ladin can’t begin to understand the joy of a free Chick-Fil-A sandwich or a tall drip to-go. He hates our freedom.

  262. njkayker
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:43 pm [Reply]

    “For those of you who think “experience” is critical for a President” and voted for Bush, why did his lack of experience not matter?

  263. Red Greenback
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:44 pm [Reply]

    McCain wins Kentucky! That makes perfect sense. Did you know the toothbrush was invented in Kentucky? If it was invented anywhere else, it would be called a “teethbrush”. I kid Kentucky. I kid because I love.

  264. Alfred E. Neuman
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:50 pm [Reply]

    #224 lesles, #252 fashion police— Rugby has a World Cup? I should have known that. When I was in college, my school had one of the best collegiate rugby teams in the US. I got to see them play the All Blacks, and I expected it would be a good contest. It was. In a nail-biter, All Blacks edged my team about 50-6. They were very impressive. It’s hard to believe that they haven’t won a world championship in over 20 years.

  265. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:50 pm [Reply]

    lol Red.

    One of my favorite Simpsons moments: At a hockey match, one of Cletus’s daughters catches a tooth and shoves it in her top gum. “Now I looks like Britney Spears!” she screams.

  266. ms. docweasel
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:52 pm [Reply]


    gee, and Obama backers wonder why everyone else thinks they are assholes: they are

  267. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:53 pm [Reply]

    #138 ms docweasel:

    I still have hope for the better angels of the American public’s nature, however…”

    Not much evidence for that, I’m afraid. However, if any feelings of hope for the better angels of our nature ever do overtake you, feel free to let them spill over into your posts here!

    #145 TGrum: Hey, enjoy the SmoBros! They’re in great voice, they’re as funny as ever, and obviously enjoying themselves. Also, the crowd’s a bunch of mellow and friendly gray hairs.

  268. Mark
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:54 pm [Reply]

    Okay, truth be told, I voted for Mike Patterson. He was on the proper side of the aisle. Plus, after voting I saw him out in the parking lot, and told him I sent that picture in. He thought that was pretty cool, so points for him. And he didn’t really look like the FOOB Mike Patterson, either. And he wasn’t Canadian after all. Plus, I bet if the REAL Mike Patterson wrote a book, it wouldn’t be as bad as ther FOOB’s book. If nothing else, he needs to know something about writign to be a clerk of courts!


  269. Anonymous
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:56 pm [Reply]

    233: Get on a raft with Taft! (just make sure it is a very buoyant raft.)

  270. Jamus The Bartender
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:56 pm [Reply]

    Wow. Just got back from voting, no long lines in evidence (Cassandra voted absentee, she’s in the jug again), but I don’t see how, as the aged-sixty-and-older election ladies insist on escorting you into the booth to check for “hip and groin stability ” and “relaxin’ ya to make sure your mind is right for votin’ “. Did that happen to anyone else? I mean, that has to take some time. And no one tell Cassandra.

  271. P
    November 4th, 2008 at 8:59 pm [Reply]

    And Fox and CBS say Mccain’s won West Virginia, they say he’s won SC, and Ohio is a tossup.

  272. Someone from Texas....
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:08 pm [Reply]

    267: One of the weaselvolk…

    I don’t think that “everyone” means what you think it means.

  273. docweasel
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:08 pm [Reply]

    I concede… I happily accept Barack Obama as my president. I apologize for my earlier rudeness.

  274. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:15 pm [Reply]

    267 ms. docweasel
    I take offense to that – my being an asshole and supporting Obama are mutually exclusive things.

    I don’t want to start trouble, by the way, but I asked you earlier about how you knew all these “black churches” were preaching racism. That seems to be a nasty, unfounded and sweeping charge.

  275. ms. docweasel
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:26 pm [Reply]

    Rev. Wright told me so: that his church is far from abnormal or radical, that all black churches across the country are black supremecists.

    And, if they are NOT, and Wright is a liar, then Obama picked a church that was an anomaly: a racist, radical church that indoctrinated his young daughters (and him, I guess, and his wife) that white people created AIDS to kill blacks, that whites are greedy as a race and conspire to keep the black race down, that America is an evil country run by evil, racist whites.

    I had no idea that I was so hated just for being white.

    Also, corby and various other trolls: it’s trolling when you just attack me and not my argument. There is no argument coming from you I can debate, you insult me. How am I supposed to debate someone who posts “SUCK IT”.

    But, typical liberals.

  276. sam
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:30 pm [Reply]

    in the end, it isn’t race but money that divides this nation, the overwhelming majority of people who pay federal income taxes vote for one party, while those who pay no taxes and receive government benefits vote for the other party.

    at this point, 38% of voters pay no taxes and can vote in a candidate who will take more money from those who already contribute.

    some noble people are willing to vote in a candidate knowing that it means they will pay more in taxes. europe is full of social democracies with such noble citizens. similarly, europe also has almost no GDP growth.

  277. Dean Booth of the Affect Ad Patrol
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:36 pm [Reply]

    The FALSE, it burns!

  278. Someone from Texas....
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:37 pm [Reply]

    The weaselvolk sure are nervous tonight.

    Your posts really turned that thread nasty–the thread that angered Josh a couple of days ago. And I doubt your screeds won any votes for the Geezer/Dingbat Ticket.

  279. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:42 pm [Reply]

    I don’t know much about Jeremiah Wright. As far as I know, it’s entirely possible that he’s said some pretty extreme things, and it’s also entirely possible that I wouldn’t like the guy at all, I really don’t know.

    But if you look at the various things Obama himself has said on the topic of race, I think it’s pretty clear he’s a thoughtful and understanding guy, and not some kind of anti-Caucasian extremist.

  280. cartmansdad
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:47 pm [Reply]

    I am sitting here watching the news with my kids, and they just called Pennsylvania for Obama. I am so proud of this country and how far it has come in spite of haters like Docweasel. I have spent most of my life in Southern states. I grew up with “colored” water fountains, but my kids get to grow up with a black president.

    Obama is such a dynamic and brilliant person and has surrounded himself with dedicated people, he is clearly the answer we need to the crass politics based government we have suffered under for the last 8 years. Those that can be won over will be won over. Those that just want to hate, well, they will just get left behind. Maybe you can go live in a cave or something. God Bless.

  281. sam
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:50 pm [Reply]

    is it just me or do most thoughtful and understanding guys not hang out with people who say god damn america? personally if my religious leader said something like that, i might consider finding a new place of worship.

    obama isn’t a racist. he isn’t an extremist. he is a super clever politician who tailors his opinions to fit the crowd. he, like everyone else who aspires to be president, sells his morality for votes.

  282. Red Greenback
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:53 pm [Reply]

    Those whacky Al Qaeda pricks that endorsed the McCotton Hill/Caribou Barbie ticket must be bummed right about now. Then again, Osama Bin Laden’s breathing a sigh of relief because Johnnie’s going “Fuck it!, I’m never going to tell those ingrates how to catch him!”

  283. LightSyrup (OR)
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:56 pm [Reply]

    I didn’t vote. I couldn’t make up my mind!

    I’m obsessed w/numbers, though, so I’m watching and the little tickers are ticking.

    McCain gets some votes and I’m like “Yeah!” Obama gets some votes and I’m like “Yeah!”

  284. Islamorada Girl
    November 4th, 2008 at 9:58 pm [Reply]

    Well, I’m thinking in terms of John Adams/Thomas Jefferson slash fiction. Did y’all know they both died on July 4th, 1826? Was it some terrible firecracker accident that had to be covered up?

    Even though I wrote a great satire of Bulwar Lytton and recieved the praise of my peers, Josh chose someone else as the TR-Taft slash winner. Shee-yit, as we say here. I’m surrounded by hungry dogs and I’m wearin’ bacon pants.

    I’m looking at a condo in Honduras and the Maritimes, myself.
    If Obama doesn’t win, I cannot take another eight years of this. In the past month, I’ve lost almost all of my retirement savings. I’m going to make a pitcher of cosmos and get really, really drunk. It’s been a long damn day.

  285. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:01 pm [Reply]

    282 sam — believe it or not, I actually agree with a big part of what you’re saying. I think we have some common ground.

    Obama’s not necessarily a dangerous extremist, but he’s a politician. Politics is a game of strategic alliances, and dealing with hundreds or thousands of different people with various pet causes. Included in the mix are people who sometimes say outrageous things.

  286. LightSyrup (OR)
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:03 pm [Reply]

    I am loving the nicknames, guys…

  287. PeteMoss
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:16 pm [Reply]

    I haven’t been able to get any poll results in the highly contested Clerk of Courts race. Please tell me Mike Patterson is ahead. This new job might keep him too busy to write those gawd-awful books. Screw the courts.

  288. Poteet
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:29 pm [Reply]

    # 285 Islamorada Girl — I haven’t added my praise yet, but your TR/Taft slashfic entry amazed me. In a field crowded with very impressive entries, I think I would have awarded you the crown.

    Now I live in fear that Josh will someday call for Nixon/Eisenhower slashfic. Or Kennedy/Johnson slashfic. Noooooo….

  289. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:33 pm [Reply]

    Are Nixon and Eisenhower possibly the two least sexual presidents in living memory?

  290. P
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:33 pm [Reply]

    Everybody’s saying Obama’s swept Ohio!

  291. Shiela Sternwell
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:34 pm [Reply]

    Nixon has the raw sexual magnetism of a David Letterman.

  292. Shiela Sternwell
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:40 pm [Reply]

    Also, corby and various other trolls: it’s trolling when you just attack me and not my argument. … How am I supposed to debate someone who posts “SUCK IT”.

    That’s not what trolling is, genius. And there was no reason for you to debate me at all. I don’t want to debate you, because I find you vile, racist, ignorant and ridiculous. I just want you to suck it.

  293. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:52 pm [Reply]

    248 Andrew Leal: We will fight and die for our most Glorious Clause! Never give up! Never Edit!

    (runs from Kem’s wrath)

    Mooncattie: perfect spelling, just no diacriticals, which I don’t expect you to know anyway. :)

    267 ms docweasel: actually, it’s idolaters of either party leader that tend to come off as assholes, since they’re effectively shutting their eyes and shouting to everyone indiscriminately. And I do mean it – they treat their party leaders as actual Idols, something to adore and revere and someone as infallible. Anyone saying the least bit bad about them must be shut up and thrown away or something. And if one party leader is idolised, more often than not the other party leader is demonised. Shouting matches are not debates, and there’s precious little to say to someone who will not listen.

    Which is different from someone who has listened and took a decision, and who by now may be tired of trying to always say the same arguments backed by facts to which no one will apparently listen. Frustration can set in and… more shouting.

    If you ask me, having the whole process over a whole year is guaranteed to now exceed anyone’s capacity to take it. Since horse-speed is no longer the fastest way to go about the land, I think the delays might be able to be shortened a little…

  294. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:57 pm [Reply]

    Amid this all, I’m going to relay a positive experience.
    I live in a fairly conservative, rural town (a few rich people, several vineyards, numerous farms, many guns, pleny of Protestant churches and a smattering of meth labs).
    Pretty much our entire block is Republican (judging by the McCain/Palin signs). I am happy to announce that we put out an Obama/Biden sign and NO ONE messed with it.
    It should be noted that my wife and I tend to give out the best candy on Halloween, of course.

  295. ring around the collar
    November 4th, 2008 at 10:57 pm [Reply]

    291- P

    Obama’s swept Ohio? If so he seems to have missed that corner of Ohio which happens to be my kitchen floor. Because there’s catfood all over.

  296. Dingo
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:00 pm [Reply]

    Well, MSNBC just did the math and it looks like my writing above may come true. Not sure if Cindy will say that line but I’d really love it if she did. It takes a classy lady to talk dirty and make it sound good.

  297. Niall
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:05 pm [Reply]

    290. Skullturf: I know one person who thought Nixon had amazing magnetism – in the mind of Nixon himself. Or rather, Tricky Dick. If you start reading at the beginning of the Canadian webcomic Framed!, I think Dick shows up about 30 strips in. After Jackson Pollock (sort of), Art Garfunkel, Waldo (you won’t believe what he does with/to Waldo) and a few others. And it’s the most meta-strip I know, since he used his own friends to “trap” them in a comic strip universe, and they slowly discover its laws. Including that of the Narrator. it’s bizarre but never dull. :)

  298. sam
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:08 pm [Reply]

    with ohio to obama, the election is over. all he needs is california and washington and he is president elect.

    this election is all about weath redistribution. robin hood and little john have returned to sherwood forest.

  299. scruffylove
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:13 pm [Reply]

    If I ever meet Palin, I just want to shake her hand and say, “Thank you for losing the election for McCain.”
    I don’t think I would have cared as much until that piece of work got on board.

  300. Shiela Sternwell
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:16 pm [Reply]

    I like shouting.

  301. scruffylove
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:19 pm [Reply]

    Oh, can I get w00t! w00t! for medicinal marijuana here in Michigan? I’m sick of able-bodied jerks thinking that one more form of pain relief is going to create a crime wave. I take morphine, and I can tell you that my doctor and I have a very open communication about my treatment. It is not about getting high. It’s about being able to function.

  302. Lake Eerie
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:32 pm [Reply]

    294 Niall
    If I may mildly disagree with what you’re saying, people who idolize their candidates come off more deluded, while the biggest assholery comes from demonizing the other side (and their supporters) as a whole.
    Most of the millions of people voting for McCain tonight aren’t racist. And most Americans aren’t stupid for voting in GWB twice (just incorrect).
    I have no illusions about what Barack Obama will , accomplish (I do know that his tax plan, while difficult to pull off without doing some serious cost-cutting, doesn’t resemble socialism or marxism).
    Turns out he’s neither the Messiah nor the Anti-Christ (caveat: I don’t actually believe in Messiahs or Anti-Christs, so I could be wrong on both counts)

  303. Fireball
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:38 pm [Reply]

    I rolled my eyes whenever I heard McCain, Palin, and their watercarriers spit out their cheap buzzwords like a penny slot machine. I’m glad that millions and millions of others did as well.

    The man is not a terrorist, not a secret Muslim, and not a socialist. He’s a smart, hard working man with a temper of steel.

    And he’s the next president of the United States.

  304. Toronto
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:48 pm [Reply]

    So, speaking of yesterday’s Doonesbury, what ever DID happen to the war as an election issue?

  305. bats :[
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:50 pm [Reply]

    302. scruffylove: woot woot! (or however you spell it) I know chronic pain sufferers, and I’ve dealt with terminal/end-of-life pain sufferers. No loving (deity of your choice) would withhold anything that could ameliorate pain — holier-than-thou humans would.

  306. Poteet
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:52 pm [Reply]

    # 302 scruffylove — Yes, you get a wOOt! wOOt! from me. Decades ago I supplied a little marijuana to someone in Michigan who was dying of cancer in her twenties. Marijuana provided by her friends and relatives enabled her to keep eating and made her feel better. It seemed bizarre, then and now, that we risked jail time for helping a dying person through her last few months on earth. Good for Michigan.

  307. Yahtzee
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:57 pm [Reply]

    I just try to remember that, no matter how firm my opinions or reasoned my beliefs, I am still the person capable of locking her keys in her car while said car was running during a blizzard in 2004. In other words — I don’t have all the answers. Neither does anyone else. We must follow our own lights, but I really think bashing any but the most egregious behavior of “the other side” is deceitful thinking; we should also bash the most egregious behavior of our own. We are all in this together, win or lose, and none of us have all the answers.

    Also, I am only this mature, calm and considered because I took a Xanax.

  308. NotThatGuy
    November 4th, 2008 at 11:58 pm [Reply]

    Glory, Glory Hallelujah! Now, may we all join hands and sing Kumbaya in an act of national healing and togetherness.

  309. scruffylove
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:04 am [Reply]


  310. DavidMac
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:05 am [Reply]

    Uncle Jeff (#143): Yes, I know the “Fairness Doctrine” pertains to broadcast TV/radio. I was trying to be facetious.

    Obviously, I failed miserably.

    It seems you think that the viewing/listening public isn’t smart enough to distinguish between various levels and sectors of the political spectrum. Maybe not, but I do not believe the federal government should pretend that by giving the opposition to a right-wing radio show a voice (regardless of the audience’s wishes) that some “equality” will be achieved.

    Let the market decide. The market decided that Air America was simply not its cup of tea. That means A.A. didn’t garner enough listeners who agreed with their leftist pap. Maybe because Air America was simply full of hot air and socialistic hatred for the right.

  311. Toronto
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:09 am [Reply]

    Someone’s cheerin’ Lord, Kumbayah.

    Damn! I forget the next line.

  312. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:10 am [Reply]

    Oh, man… Barack’s grandma hung in there almost long enough to see him elected. …sniff…
    Best wishes, all.

  313. DavidMac
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:17 am [Reply]

    LINDSEY (# 165):

    You do NOT see me posting political comments on this board. If you’d like to see some of my work, go to I normally comment on the subject at hand: the comics.

    I reacted to YOUR post. You implied that too many people were making political comments (which Josh had allowed today). That means that the level of political comments surpassed what YOU think it should be. Josh’s blog, Josh’s rules.

    That smacks of the same mind-set that says, “I think so-and-so is makes too much money!”, but when asked how much “too much” is, they can’t give an answer.

    You want to get into a urinating contest with me, you’ll lose. I rarely (if ever) flame anyone on any board. Read my comments on TownHall and see who posts vitriol (hint: it’s the leftists). I use logic and critical thought in my comments. I do not make snide comments (as apparently you do).

  314. Deena in OR
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:26 am [Reply]

    Peace, y’all. May we wake up tomorrow energized to work together to continue to make a better world.

  315. Andy Panderer
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:34 am [Reply]

    Amen! I look forward to once again offering my unfunny comments on the comics tomorrow.

  316. larry
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:36 am [Reply]

    and so a nation rejoices that they can once again elect someone who will get them free money. those of us who are supplying the free money for this party are less than thrilled, but the joke will be on the middle income earners who won’t be spared from tax hikes and the marginal workers who will lose their jobs as payroll taxes skyrocket.

    in short, there is no free lunch. but tonight, for many there will be free drinks. party on garth.

  317. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:36 am [Reply]

    Oh man, you mean we have to go back to talking about the comics after this?

  318. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:37 am [Reply]

    Well, the joke’s on you Larry, because I work hard but hardly make any money.

  319. Paul K
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:41 am [Reply]

    Larry, a little lesson here. The Republican power base is in the states that recieve the highest percent of federal funding against what they put into it, the poorest states, not the west coast or the northeast.
    Embrace the change buddy.
    We are once again a leading example of the good of democracy. Other countries are raising their eyes to the US tonight.

  320. Paul K
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:42 am [Reply]

    I am glad you allowed political discourse on here, but the people spouting disgusting racist stuff, like post 320 there…please let us never have them grace this blog again.

  321. Rebelcat
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:52 am [Reply]

    Paul – I thought post 320 was a funny joke, like you get on the Daily Show. Terrorist fist jabs, y’know?

    Plus, I’d guess anyone who writes “Suck it, whitey” is probably black. So when I read it, I imagined Larry Wilmore saying it. My friend, however, heard Wyatt Cenac.

  322. Paul K
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:52 am [Reply]

    White people still make up the majority of this country. Obama won the majority vote….in a freakin landslide, and that means quite a few old, white rich christian men…like Warren Buffett, voted for him. The new minority are the hate mongers like you, and to quote Dolamite, you backwoods, barnyard motha-fer…..oh don’t take that personally, it’s just humor.

  323. Someone from Texas....
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:53 am [Reply]

    H0u53: Were you one of the yahoos booing Senator McCain’s gracious speech?

    They certainly had no problem picking on an “old, rich, white, christian man.”

  324. Rebelcat
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:57 am [Reply]

    Someone from Texas, I didn’t hear anyone booing McCain. I heard them booing every time he said Obama’s name, but that’s to be expected. And they booed when he said he was personally to blame for losing the election. Those are, like, supportive boos.

    I did hear some boos mixed in with the cheers when he mentioned Sarah Palin, though…

  325. The Spectacular Spider-Brick, Proud Masonry-American
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:58 am [Reply]

    When MSNBC and CNN (I was watching both, picture-in-picture) called the race for Obama, a result I both wished for and expected, I was surprised at how moved I was. The thought that came powerfully to mind as I watched the people on TV celebrating was, “This means so much.”

    On Sept. 11, 2001, I worked for a daily newspaper. It was a morning paper, which means my shift generally began at 3 p.m., so I was asleep when the attacks happened. By the time I woke up and turned on the news, it was clear that what had happened was no accident, but a coldly calculated attack. Though it was my day off, I knew I had to go in. I predicted to my co-workers, “America will be different after this.” In the sense that 9/11 made George Bush’s worst excesses possible, and led to the anti-Republican mood that swept the country this election cycle, the terrorists made possible the election of Barack Obama, and our accompanying national mood shift from tense and fearful to powerfully hopeful. I believe America will be a nobler nation now that we have seen how easy it would be to slowly, subtly become a totalitarian dictatorship, and rejected that option. Wherever he is, may Osama bin Laden choke on that knowledge.

  326. larry
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:02 am [Reply]

    paul – a little lesson here – if taxes eat into the $40k that i pay a nanny so my wife and i can no longer afford the help at home. i may have to fire her.

    when our marginal tax rate goes to the point where my wife’s salary after taxes no longer covers the nanny, she quits her job and we fire the nanny. that’s two jobs lost and net net, the governent gets less. the economic reality of higher taxes is lower employment. you tell me – if my wife makes 100k, pays 50k in taxes and pays 40k to a nanny – does it make any sense for her to work 40 hours a week to take home 10k net? doesn’t it make more sense for the government to tax my wife at 25% and have the nanny pay no taxes, instead of getting zero from my wife and paying unemployment to the nanny?

    raising taxes during a recession is generally a recipe for spiralling unemployment. it’s’ not that i think mcain or bush had any clue about the economy. but obama’s tax plan is a disincentive for dual income earners to continue both working if thier joint income exceeds 250k.

  327. Shiela Sternwell
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:03 am [Reply]

    McCain’s speech was gracious. Obama’s speech is going well, I particularly liked the puppy comment.

  328. Sheila Sternwell
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:04 am [Reply]

    Hey, why didn’t anyone tell me I still had my name misspelled? I’m an idiot. I did it as a “joke” back on the thread where people were using sockpuppets, and I forgot to change it back. I am chagrined.

  329. JGarner
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:07 am [Reply]

    A serious question.

    Is it any less racist for an African American to vote for Obama only on the basis that is black then it would be a white person to vote for McCain only because he’s white?

    If not why not?

  330. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:10 am [Reply]

    Oh boo hoo, I have a six figure salary and don’t know whether or not I can continue to hire a nanny.

    Nobody with a combined household income over $250K has any business at all complaining about their personal financial situation. I consider it an insulting slap in the face.

  331. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:13 am [Reply]

    Sorry, I might have crossed the line a little there. It’s late and I guess one of my buttons got pushed.

  332. The Spectacular Spider-Brick, Proud Masonry-American
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:14 am [Reply]

    Larry @ 326: As half of a household with a combined income of less than $75K and two mortgages to pay until the housing market climbs out of the sewer far enough for our former house to finally sell, pardon me if I fail to sympathize with the tax woes of someone who pays their nanny more than my salary.

  333. Andrew Leal
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:20 am [Reply]

    329 JGarner: It can’t really be answered here, but the whole point of hegemony is that it involves dominance and inequity. Institutionalized and also personal racism is part of hegemony.

    So if a white person votes for McCain just because he’s white and they can’t stand the idea of a black person in the White House? I’m afraid it is prejudiced, yes.

    African Americans voting for Obama because he’s black? I’m not sure how many *really* voted for him for that reason; my adopted sister, who’s mixed race but whose skin is clearly brown and thus denotes her as “black” and who has three black daughters, wavered because she was afraid of what he’s inheriting, and that if he failed, it wouldn’t be because of the circumstances or even any faults as a person, but because of his skin. So she considered voting McCain and let him sort it out or not.

    Basically, “the minority has us outnumbered” cannot happen. It can only happen when the minority is the majority in both numbers and power, and I don’t think that’s the case here.

    I didn’t want to get political on a political thread, but that’s how I see it. It could only be racist to vote for Obama if one actually hated the idea of a white man in the office, and not the idea of John McCain or Sarah Palin or a Republican and so on. I’m just not seeing it.

    I love old cartoons and comics, by the way. Some of the racial stuff makes me cringe, but some I think works in its historical context or can be understood or even enjoyed. But animation buffs often ask, “How come big-lipped watermelon black caricatures who carry razor blades and talk slow are offensive? Elmer Fudd is a white middle-class idiot and so are others.” They never put it quite like that, and both are stereotypes and caricatures. The thing is, the Elmer J. Fudds of real life never had to go to separate bathrooms and were never lynched and so on.

    I’m not rehashing a past I wasn’t even around for (though my mother, a white woman in the south, lived through most of it), and I can kind of understand the other perspective. But that’s basically the difference (take it with as much salt as you like; I’m an unemployed depressed English major, not a sociologist, this is just my perceptions and what I’ve gleaned from researching America’s cultural history and the days when two white men could talk black and wear blackface in public and be universally beloved and charming, but any actual black supporting actors were refused entrance to hotels and so on).

  334. Lisa
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:24 am [Reply]

    I make less than half of what he pays his nanny… hey, maybe he could hire me for 25% less than he pays her. I’d take it.

  335. Lisa
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:26 am [Reply]

    Well said, Andrew.

  336. Deena in OR
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:36 am [Reply]

    Watching Jesse J. in tears at the Obama party brought me to tears…and I’m not even a big fan of his.

    Now is the time. Now is the time to pull together as a country to make this country, this economy, our infrastructure work. Now is the time to celebrate, to hold precious and celebrate the work of every person who lives in this great country.

    Peace, everyone.

  337. Dingo
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:36 am [Reply]

    First, I’d like to thank Josh for allowing this today. I listened to both Senator McCain’s concession speech and Senator Obama’s acceptance. I thought that John McCain was gracious in defeat and wish that his supporters had done the same. Perhaps it’s just me but I thought the rude reaction of his crowd embarrassed him. He ended his campaign with dignity. It is now up to the Republican Party to decide who they will be in the future. Will they go back to being the party of Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Eisenhower or the monster taken over by the religious right? I also felt that Senator President-Elect Obama hit the right conciliatory statements in his acceptance. As a gay white male, the closest I’ve seen of “one of mine” as president was James Buchanan and historically he wouldn’t have seen himself as gay. Now we show the world that any child can dream of growing up to be president. And any child can.

  338. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:38 am [Reply]

    It’s a huge huge topic, and I don’t claim to be able to contribute much more at this late hour. But I’ll try to make one point I hope is a little relevant.

    I’ve heard a few people say things to the effect of “How dare someone vote for Obama just because he’s black!” First of all, as Andrew points out, I think hardly anyone *really* voted for him *only* because he was black, in the sense that they would have voted for any old joker off the street just because he happened to be black.

    Also, when people (left or right) say things like, “Don’t vote along racial lines! Ignore race completely, and just evaluate the candidate as a person!” I hear where you’re coming from, and I want to believe in that ideal, but at the same time, you’re voting for a human being. You’re not voting for an abstract ideal; you’re voting for a particular person who grew up in a particular place and time. Ethnicity, age, and gender are all woven into the fabric of who and what we are, for better or for worse.

    I certainly want to believe everyone’s equal, but race or ethnicity isn’t like a cloak that you can take off or put on at will. It’s not quite as simple as just “turning off” race when you evaluate a political candidate, or anyone else. Your decision about whether or not to vote for them is based not only on the policies of their party, but also on their character, their upbringing, the types of jobs they had before entering politics, the neighborhood they grew up in, who their parents were… I guess I’m trying to say, it’s not as simple as just proclaiming “Everyone should be like me and just move past race right now.”

  339. scruffylove
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:39 am [Reply]

    larry-By the time whatever you think is going to happen maybe happens, your nanny will hopefully have found a better job.

    She (or he) doesn’t have to work under your thumb anymore.

    And, gee, I’m so sorry you can afford to have one parent at home to hang out with your kid. Waaa.

  340. Dimmer
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:50 am [Reply]

    “when our marginal tax rate goes to the point where my wife’s salary after taxes no longer covers the nanny, she quits her job and we fire the nanny. that’s two jobs lost and net net, the governent gets less”

    So, by that logic, the job your wife is doing is pointless — otherwise, the company she works for would have to hire a replacement. The nanny moves into the employment pool, gets a new gig (newsflash: breeders keep breeding!) at most likely an equivalent or higher rate; you can now file jointly and you’ll get a tax break from that, while in effect two new jobs are created, and your kids get brought up by their mother, not a daycare/nanny service.

    What, again, was your issue?

  341. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:53 am [Reply]

    @313 DavidMac: I think I have been pretty reasonable in this thread. I am sorry if you disagree, but I’m not even sure what this argument is about, what you’re arguing against, and what I’m supposed to be arguing for, so… I’m guess you win?

  342. RJE
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:58 am [Reply]

    So Barack Obama will be my President.

    When I wake up tomorrow my life will be no different. I’ll still have to do the dishes I left in the sink tonight; still have to feed my cats and clean their boxes; I’ll still have to work 40 hrs a week while I go to school full time; still have to stretch my budget to fit in loan payments; still won’t be able to afford insurance and have the ‘check engine’ light on in my car til I can scrape up money to take it in.

    But I will feel better. I’ll feel more confident about my dreams and goals; feel better about my fellow countrymen, and about my country and my place in it. I will have more hope for my future.

    That will be the difference.

    (And weren’t those guys just adorable up on stage? Yay for huggy families!)

  343. Saluki
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:59 am [Reply]

    #146 Zach:

    You don’t get it because you’re an idiot.

    The Republican smear machine reeled in a gullible, hook, line, and sinker.

    At a time when Americans are dieing to be united you choose to go with the guys that want to divide and conquer.

  344. timmmm
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:01 am [Reply]

    Oh, DavidMac, the awesomest thing about Obama winning is how folks like you are reacting. Not to say your point of view is invalid, but posting condescending nonjokes and claiming you’re being levelheaded is offputting.

    Also, Air America is still in business.

    And to negate any kind of maturity this post may contain, “TASTE THE REALITY: PRESIDENT OBAMA. FACE!”

  345. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:02 am [Reply]

    Well I just wanted to say that news of Obama’s win does make me excited for the future. I’m interested to see which direction he takes this country, for better or worse (AAAUGH I JUST WENT THERE). All in all, I just want a president I can feel proud of again. I’m hoping Obama is that president. We’ll see.

  346. LightSyrup (OR)
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:04 am [Reply]

    @Howabominable, #245
    I concur – I love your comment.

  347. timmmm
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:05 am [Reply]

    #146 Zach:

    Saluki’s kinda right. Most of what you said is based on fraudulent or at least heavily spun information.


  348. Andrew Leal
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:06 am [Reply]

    336: Skullturf:

    I’m tired too, but very well put (and I think you know that’s not what I was saying either). The whole issue isn’t so basic and colorblindness is easier in theory in practice. I was just focusing on the “is it less racist” aspect. It didn’t factor into my vote in this occasion, but by the same token, the historicity of this moment and what so many are feeling, outside of a change and the exhiliration after an election, is because yes, he is African American (substantially anyway) and the first to be President. (If anyone did vote for him just “because he was black,” it would have more to do with that than any reverse racism and so on). I need to gather library books and stuff, but the calm and intelligent posts from yourself and others have been a pleasure to read (and in this thread, mostly seemed to dominate, no matter what one’s opinion or who one voted for.)

    Also, I wish I had it handy to scan, but “Beetle Bailey” comes to mind with this discussion. Lt. Flap, when introduced, was controversial, especially with Southern editors, but he was also introduced as returning from combat duty in ‘Nam or somesuch. His first lines of dialogue? “How come there’s no blacks in this honky outfit?” It’s funny, topical, and not what we tend to associate with the bland Walker Enterprises of today (some other strips were similar in tone with regard to Killer’s pin-ups and sexual urges or Sarge’s profanity and so on; not raunchy but definitely playing it less safe back then).

  349. Orinoco
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:12 am [Reply]

    Good to see after Bush spent 8 years, according the some commentators, destroying American democracy, it seems to work pretty darn well.

  350. LightSyrup (OR)
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:14 am [Reply]

    I wish I was making 40k. But not as a nanny. Yikes.

  351. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:18 am [Reply]

    Thanks Andrew. To clarify, I wrote what I wrote more as a response to JGarner than as a response to you.

  352. Erik
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:23 am [Reply]


    You’re crying like a miserable fucking BITCH about losing your goddamn NANNY meanwhile nearly everyone I fucking know would DIE IN A DITCH if they got terminally ill because they don’t have health insurance.

    Cry me a fucking river you selfish overprivileged shitbag.

  353. scruffylove
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:25 am [Reply]

    Not to be paranoid, but is anyone else as afraid for President Obama(!) as I am? I wouldn’t blame him for giving his speeches from now on from an undisclosed, underground location.

    I keep looking at that big red belt on the belly of our country.

    Please. Please tell me I have nothing to fear.

  354. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:29 am [Reply]

    Here I was worried that I was crossing the line in my response to Larry. I find that I’m not alone.

    People who make a lot of money, yet still complain about financial and taxation issues, really bother me. You think you work hard? News flash: We ALL work hard. Some of us are fortunate enough to get paid a lot of money for our time, and some of us are not.

  355. Anonymous
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:34 am [Reply]

    249 GreenCard says:

    can you not read, or are you stupid, or are you demagoguing? I don’t criticize his kids. Show me where I say one negative thing about his kids. I am criticizing the fact that he indoctrinated his kids from birth on the theory that white people are:
    1. greedy
    2. murderous
    3. evil
    4. dishonest
    5. supremacists who conspire to keep blacks “down”

    I find it not only offensive and racist, but hypocritical and slimy as well. The guy has never accomplished anything but getting himself a job, then auditioning for the next job while not doing the job for which he was hired. Now he’s hit the pinnacle. He’s never done the first thing “bi-partisan”. He’s manifestly hostile and biased again whites. He’s made comments which show he detests working people, and he’s allowed his subordinates to stifle free speech, harass those who oppose him, misuse the bureaucracy to intimidate them, etc, and he’s not even in office yet.

    For years we’ve heard how GWBush was a Nazzy who would imprison anyone who criticized him – yet after 8 years of the most intense criticism, there’s zero evidence he’s even harassed ANYONE. Obama is not even elected yet, and we have Joe the Plumber and his private records, the Attorneys General and District Attorneys and Sheriffs in MO. threatening legal action against anyone who “lied” about Obama, we had the thin skinned racist, who got 99% glowing and biased press coverage jump ugly any time anyone in the press DID dare cross him. Doesn’t look good for freedom of the press, and he’s not too solid on the 2nd amendment either.

    And some genius above wrote about how “socialist” is being thrown around as if it’s an insult. Well, to working men and women, it is. To people who want to “redistribute the wealth”, I guess it’s not.

    Democracies only last until the public discovers they can vote themselves all the money and programs they want. Obama has promised plenty, but with no way to pay for it other than to soak the middle class (last I heard, those making over $120k a year, which is not much for couple with kids, really). Because he knows best what to do with your money.

    Oh well, the pendulum swings. The dems will remind everyone why they hate them and will be voted out, probably starting in 2010, not that GOP distinguished itself when they had the majority either. Just hopefully, Obama’s corruption will catch up with him and he’ll be removed before he can name any judges or make any great blunders. Biden, I can live with.

    I don’t want to be ruled by a president who is a stone racist who believes evil things about me just because I’m white. I’m not a bitter clinger, either, despite his opinions to the contrary.

  356. Aging Hipster
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:35 am [Reply]

    Hey Skullturf,

    I really do think that Nixon had that certain magnetism. It is what drove all us leftists crazy. And I think that Eisenhower was a very attentive lover.

    George W, however, I don’t find him sexy at all. I don’t think he would be a good f*ck.

    Although, I am pretty sure he is very good at jacking-off.

  357. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:36 am [Reply]


    Okay, I’m going to bed now. Good night.

  358. Tweeks_Coffee
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:37 am [Reply]

    I’m not going to lie, I got a bit misty tonight. I didn’t think I would, really. Even when I was voting it was just another election to me. On the way home, after hearing Obama’s acceptance speech I almost had to stop the car because it was getting hard to see.

    That speech was simply awesome. I’m pretty sure that my hardcore, masculine, republican buddy got choked up a bit too, I heard him sniffle. Even thinking about it now is starting to get me a little. This is the first time in the 3 elections I’ve been eligible to vote in that I’m actually proud to be an American. I am so completely floored that I can’t even think straight, much less sleep.

    I also really liked McCain’s speech, I think he said all the right things and was nothing but a gracious loser. That speech reminded me of why I would’ve been fine with him as president.

    As I toasted my buddy, “Here’s to 4 years of difference. Bad or good, it will be different.”

  359. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:40 am [Reply]

    @353 scruffylove: If Bush hasn’t been assassinated at this point, I don’t think you need to worry about Obama. A lot more people hate Bush than hate Obama.

  360. Erik
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:42 am [Reply]

    355: Complete psychotic racist or dedicated troll.

    In either case I’m content to ignore it.

  361. Dingo
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:43 am [Reply]

    And now it’s time to ask:

    What would Mary Worth have thought of tonight’s speeches?

  362. Erik
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:43 am [Reply]

    359: I really, REALLY hope you’re right.

    The depressing, pessimistic viewpoint historically is the realization that the vast majority of kind, benevolent leaders are assassinated by douchebags while the vile, cruel dictators more often than not live long, healthy, prosperous lives.

  363. Tweeks_Coffee
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:46 am [Reply]

    On just very brief skimming of this thread (since I really don’t feel like reading through all the fighting) I’ll go ahead and nominate #215 – RJE as my favorite post. This is the kind of story I like. I don’t believe his state went blue in the end, but it all turned out well.

  364. ferret
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:46 am [Reply]

    355: What’s a “Nazzy?” It sounds like a kind of plane.

  365. Zach
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:52 am [Reply]

    Saluki- I’m sorry, but I just can not think of anything to say in the face of your highly, highly hypocritical post.

    “The Republican smear machine reeled in a gullible, hook, line, and sinker.” is how somebody who is “dying to be united” speaks? What about Sheila’s “Suck it,” is that what uniting sounds like?

    Whatever. Either I’m wrong and we’ve got a good president, or I’m right, and I’ll get to be the first person to return Sheila’s “suck it.” Either way, Saluki, you’re a hypocrite. Good luck with that.

  366. Dr. Weird
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:53 am [Reply]

    353 Scruffy Obama has been elected President, which clearly demonstrates how racial attitudes have changed… the south and rural areas are not places full of racially-charged violence any longer. The Klan went from six million members in the 20s to a piddling 3,000 today (and compare the increase in population over those decades).

    There simply ARE no organized race-hatred groups that attack people in the US… all of the major acts of domestic terrorism have been done by one or two people. There is not some secret army of hate that has escaped detection until just this very moment. Do some crazies want to kill Obama? Certainly, but a significant number than wanted to kill Bush, or anyone who’s in the public eye? No.

  367. scruffylove
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:58 am [Reply]

    Thanks, Dr. Weird and the others, it’s just that I’m 30 years old and this is the most politically monumental moment that I have ever seen. I’m afraid to underestimate the hate.

  368. Jack Parsons
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:15 am [Reply]

    Nader? But he’s a damn Arab!

  369. Helena Handbasket
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:13 am [Reply]

    I took my three-year-old daughter to the polls today, so that she could help hold the pen while I filled in the “Obama” bubble and so that a poll worker could take a picture of us with our, “I voted!” stickers. I want to be able to show that photo to her in 16 years when she’s getting ready for her first vote for President. I want her to know she can make a difference. I spent the day making calls to battleground states and I was so happy to see the states I called turning blue, because I’ve lived in all of them (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, New Mexico).

    My husband, daughter and I are living on $50,000 while he’s in school, and we have a mortgage on a house we can’t sell and can’t live in, and I probably put in an average of 10 hours a day for my job, so please don’t imply that people who are earning less aren’t hard workers. Even when my husband was working we made significantly less than 100K/year. I can’t even imagine $120K or being able to afford a nanny. We’re desperately trying to figure out how to afford the new glasses we need, and how to be able to afford to fix my daughter’s teeth.

    Most of Europe is socialist, and I would be damn proud if our country took care of its citizens the way that England or Sweden do. I would be proud if we truly invested in our “human capital” and showed real family values by making sure that everyone had health care and an education through college. Do I think that people making over $200K a year could afford to lose a little of that so that people like my daughter could get health care? Hell yes I do. And if you don’t think you can pass up your daily mocha to make someone else’s life a little less miserable, then you are not worth my time.

  370. Mars
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:37 am [Reply]

    Nah, you don’t want socialism. Our country is so powerful because we have so much free individual money to spend around. If 3/4 of our income went to taxes to support all the stuff you want, we’d have Sweden’s perma-flat economy.

    Also: do you want state-run hospitals that are just as good as our state-run schools? Do you want to hear “we can’t give you any more blood because it’s not in the budget”?

    Anyway, your name’s hilarious.

  371. Solocardate
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:47 am [Reply]

    Best Headline of the Night:

    “Failure to Blow Election Stuns Democrats” (Andy Borowitz on Huffington Post)

  372. Donald The Anarchist
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:05 am [Reply]

    Not gonna get into Who I Voted For. I’d just like to say how much I appreciate Josh’s successful striving to make this a place where anyone can comment regardless of their personal etc.

    Also I’ve noticed no comments by commodorejohn on this thread. I think he deserves a shoutout simply for consistently NOT viewing this site as a forum for his political views. Although he’s never shy about responding to others politically charged postings, and I’m sure he and I would have much to disagree about if it came down to a political discussion, I’m impressed by his consistency: he ALWAYS goes after the stupidity of comics, first and foremost. He’s certainly not the only one on this forum with that attitude, but I felt like a little credit was due. So there!

  373. Little Guy
    November 5th, 2008 at 8:25 am [Reply]

    Funny how we found out the news — on a fake news show.

    Interesting times….

  374. JGarner
    November 5th, 2008 at 8:52 am [Reply]

    333: Thank you for your well reasoned response, I appreciate it.

  375. Paul K
    November 5th, 2008 at 8:59 am [Reply]

    Check Doc Weasels Blog, it’s apparent he is posting on here secretly, because he is making the same comments there. What a loser.

  376. Whippersnapper
    November 5th, 2008 at 9:18 am [Reply]

    JP: Am I the only one who’s creeped out that Detective McBusty is giving Sam a come-hither look as she informs him that they’re about to see a crime scene so grisly he might lose his appetite (and his lunch)? Not really prime pick-up material, sweetie.

  377. Steven
    November 5th, 2008 at 9:40 am [Reply]

    Well, my side comprehensively lost.

    Oh well.. Time to go to work, pay the bills, take the kids to the park when the sun shines.

    In the meantime, it is time to prepare for next time.

  378. Erik
    November 5th, 2008 at 10:53 am [Reply]

    370 – Oh, I’m sorry, I guess when it comes down to having sub-par health coverage or having NOTHING AT ALL most of us would rather not DIE.

    Sweden’s economy is stable and has a high standard of living, something I can’t say about this fucking country anymore.

    Overall Obama’s plan is to lower taxes across the board. The difference is whereas rich, privileged douchebags used to get enormous cuts worth millions of dollars every year thanks to their bloated whitebread fearmonger republicans in office, Obama plans to make them carry more weight for the good of the nation and ease the burden on the rest of us.

    Boo hoo. You won’t get to be kings of an enormous pile of shit anymore.

  379. Tweeks_Coffee
    November 5th, 2008 at 11:03 am [Reply]

    #326 – larry: If your wife willingly quits her job, that’s not a lost job. That’s opening up an opportunity for someone else to take the position. Maybe someone that will be appreciative of the income will get the job.

    Man, I wish I was in a position where $10,000 net wasn’t worth my time. I’ve been fighting tooth and nail with my company to get a few extra hundred dollars out of them, all to no avail. My parents didn’t have the option to quit their job to take care of my brother and me, they still had a mortgage to pay.

  380. Islamorada Girl
    November 5th, 2008 at 11:26 am [Reply]

    If anyone’s still reading, I want to apologize for my churlish comment about Josh chosing someone else as winner of the Taft/TR slash fic contest. Josh chose someone whose entry was great, and better than mine.
    Josh is a genuinely good person, and I admire the fact that he’s a lot more tolerant of fools than I am. I hope he will extend that tolerance to me and my dumb diva remark. A friend who won a Pulitzer once told me “the smaller the talent, the bigger the ego”, and I guess I proved that point last night. My apologies to all. It was a long night, but that doesn’t excuse bad behavior.

  381. Hal Jordan
    November 5th, 2008 at 11:36 am [Reply]

    As someone with a six-figure salary and a nanny (although we call her a baby sitter – she watches the kids for about 3 hours every day after school), maybe I can speak to Larry (#326) as a member of his peer group.
    Here’s where I agree with you:
    Yes, higher taxes represent a drag on the economy. When taxes go up, household employers like you that are just barely living within their means may need to cut back. If enough people find themselves in this situation, then the former nannies will have a harder time finding a job, and unemployment will rise.
    Also, if your wife drops out of the work force, her taxable income is dropped from the tax roles. The country’s productivity drops and America’s GDP drop by the same amount.
    But here’s where we disagree:
    Taxes clearly have to be some value greater than zero. Otherwise we couldn’t afford to pay for roads, schools & firemen (which contribute to our country’s productivity) and overseas wars (which don’t). Our current tax structure is not working. The federal deficit is at eye-staggering levels. More taxes have to come from somewhere.
    Obama’s plan is to raise the top income bracket (on taxable income in excess of $250,000) from 33% to 35%. If you make less than $250,000, that doesn’t raise your taxes one penny! By his plan (although clearly not in the eyes of your fellow curmudgeons), you’re just not wealthy enough!
    (RANT) This is what blows my mind about the people who scream the loudest about Obama being a socialist. You stand to benefit! I know that plumbers like to fantasize about having a yearly income of $280,000, but it’s just not realistic. Very few people make that kind of money, and even if they do, a bump of 2% in the top tax bracket means they owe an additional ((280,000 – 250,000)*0.02) $600. You pull down over $23,000 A MONTH and you can’t pony up an additional $50 each month in taxes? You are a selfish prick! These are the same morons who are outraged about estate taxes. Do you know how much money you have to leave behind to have the estate tax kick in? $3.5 million. So if you die with $5 million in the bank, you have to pay ((5,000,000 – 3,500,000) * .45) $675,000 in estate taxes. That means your heirs only get to inherit $4.325 million. Again, if this isn’t enough, you are a selfish, selfish prick! But it’s not just the rich who complain (although they are the only ones who benefit), it’s the bubbas in this world who hold out hope (to borrow a word) that someday they’ll be that rich too and they want lower taxes just in case! Arrgggh – you’re being suckered! (/RANT)”

  382. Lake Eerie
    November 5th, 2008 at 11:47 am [Reply]

    382 – Apropos of nothing, I’m sorry to see that they apparently passed that Proposition 8 out in California, which of course impact folks who were already married.
    Oh well, a couple steps forward …
    (This, by the way, is not an invitation to argue – just an observation)

  383. UncleJeff
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:01 pm [Reply]

    Hey, how did Mike Patterson do in that clerk of courts race?

    Faithful Reader Mark — We’re waiting for a report!

  384. Hal Jordan
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:02 pm [Reply]

    Oh, and Dingo (#193) I spit coffee all over my monitor. Thanks for nothing!

  385. Marvin's Mom
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:06 pm [Reply]

    Ha ha! Nazzy!

    I enjoy seeing people I disagree with misspell things in hilarious ways.

    “Hi, I’m a Nazzy!” It almost sounds cute. Rhymes with jazzy.

  386. Hogenmogen
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm [Reply]

    #369 – Helena Handbasket. Cool. I like that name.

    Anyway, as far as I’m gathering from this post, someone got elected for some position last night and it was inspiring or something. Specifics? Not needed, I’ve just been reading H&J.

    Anyway, it’s all over but the shouting, as they say, which would explain why there’s so much shouting going on. I wish it was still going on but there was no shouting, actually.

    Personally, I don’t like either of their tax plans. I don’t think they’re good for the economy. With Obama, I’d get more of the tax breaks instead of someone else, so that’s as good a reason to favor him as any. My right wing neighbor woman asked who I voted for and asked as if shocked “Are you a… liberal???” This is the woman who apparently talks so much politics at home that her 4 year old was telling me Obama’s plan to give people medicine that aren’t sick and how he’s also going to take everybody’s money. I have a four year old, too, and I’d never discuss politcs around her, let alone fill her head with some vapid talking points.

    So giving the preverbial finger to the power establishment is also good enough reason to elect a man with brownish skin, too. Who knows, maybe in 4 years I’ll be on the warpath to throw the bum out.

  387. Occipital Lobe
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:22 pm [Reply]

    And if you don’t think every vote counts, look at the Senate race in Minnesota … Norm “More of the Same” Coleman beat Al “Doggone It, People Like Me” Franken by a hair over 600 votes …

  388. Hogenmogen
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pm [Reply]

    And as a side note, it seems like some posts are being deleted probably for their rude remarks or something. I’m a supporter of the first amendment and all of that, but when I read a comment that references comment number X, and the actual comment in question is now comment X – 3 because in the intervening time, someone saw fit to cross the line of decency. So cut it out. It pisses me off.

    #326 – Larry says “- if my wife makes 100k, pays 50k in taxes and pays 40k to a nanny – does it make any sense for her to work 40 hours a week to take home 10k net”
    Larry, actually it does make sense, as you’re gaining an extra 10K from her employment. Plus, for every pay raise, say 3% per year, your wife nets an additional 1.5K that she doesn’t have to pass along. Plus, I’ve noticed that those making six figures normally get higher percentage pay raises than the standard 3% for us peons. And, even longer term, as your wife continues her present position, she gains experience that translates into dollars after your children have grown. So yeah, it does make sense even at that tax rate to continue to pay for a nanny.

  389. Hogenmogen
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:35 pm [Reply]

    I wonder what it is that makes people want to rant on and on about politics on a blog devoted to comics, though. I’ve leaned in there a few times myself, I must admit. But I think so long as Josh has the flood gates wide open on this post, I’ll just begin to diatribe about the weather, movies that suck, sports, books I’ve read and my mother’s plans to have Thanksgiving dinner at 1:00 instead of 1:30 as I requested.

    Ha ha! I’m kidding! I haven’t read a book since 11th grade!

  390. anonymous
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:37 pm [Reply]

    The very best thing out of all of this is Sarah Palin can go back home and, if she wishes, take a big fat crap on the pristine white snow in the yard in front of her big red house, and there will be no cameras to record the moment. Because she is OVER! GONE! America did NOT fall in love with that evil bitch. I remember watching her blat away being all cute on TV and thinking, if that woman ever became president due McCain’s keeling over, I could seriously imagine her giving the go-ahead to putting us in a global war. Her crazed religious fundamentalism would make that the way to go. And then I read an interview with Stephen King at, and he said when she appeared on TV his family would “joke” , “Oh, there’s the female version of the guy in ‘The Dead Zone’.” The politician in ‘The Dead Zone’ was assassinated by the hero, who foresaw the politician setting off a war that would end life on the planet. So I wasn’t the only one!

  391. Bootsy
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:41 pm [Reply]

    Hogenmogen! So, what did you read in the 11th grade? How was it?

    How about them comics?

  392. Hank
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:42 pm [Reply]

    I see that Russia just deployed missiles to the Polish border. Seriously. I hope President Carter II is ready for four years of Russian expansionism.

  393. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:43 pm [Reply]

    The whole nanny argument . . . where to start?

    Why are the kids only the wife’s responsibility? Why should she have to sacrifice her career, but not you yours? Why don’t you see yourself as a joint economic unit? Are the kids not your problem?

    The effect of a woman taking a few years off from work is cumulative. She’ll have lower earnings life-long. This is a problem for you as a couple, as long as you stay together.

    And sheesh, man, have you heard of daycare? It’s somewhat cheaper than nannies.

    Socialism: I live in England. The NHS is awesome. There’s no shortages. I get top quality treatment for free. As I have kind of unusual medical issues, this is working out very well for me. Much much better than in the US.

    Also, Finland has a mixed socialist economy, which is also stronger than the US.

    I don’t know what people are thinking about healthcare when they write stuff against socialism. Do they think poor folks can just go without it?

    Also, what’s wrong with having a mature economy? If we all get healthcare and education and a social safety net, wouldn’t that be worth sacrificing a bit of the next bubble?

  394. canadian pinko
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:44 pm [Reply]

    388 Hogenmogen — I agree and if I may rant a little people are way too fixated on money. Doesn’t the job give her anything besides the money? Self-estime, pride, social interactions with peers, personal development, a sense of accomplishment…?

    Money of course is important when you have to provide food, shelter and education to your family. But once that is secured the rest is just a bonus imvvho.

  395. Muffaroo
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:44 pm [Reply]

    By the way, I’ll be kind of scarce for the foreseeable future. Work has flowed into my freelance fingers at last, and I should, you know, do some of it. Be sure and start an off-topic political argument in my memory, and when I come back, I’ll act all shocked and be Mister Hall Monitor and be all “Now gu-uys, Josh doesn’t like it when you do that!”


  396. Rocetboy
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:52 pm [Reply]

    canadian pinko… wha-what? It’s not specifically a fixation on money, but a fixation keeping what you earned. If I was getting paid in shoe leather, I wouldn’t want someone taking away my shoe leather to give to someone else, because I sold my time and skills to earn that shoe leather.

  397. Gold-Digging Nanny
    November 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm [Reply]

    372 Donald the Anarchist — Too true. commodorejohn and I have had a couple good conversations on this site where we came from opposite sides of the aisle to discuss whether NAOQV is devolving into partisan hackery. The politics was there, but it was always secondary. commodorejohn was respectful, intelligent, and always, always focused on the actual comic strips.

    For anyone relatively new to these boards, my name is one I chose a long time ago during a Rex Morgan storyline, not a dig at Larry (as much as I may envy his nanny’s paycheck).

    Now for my foray into politics — there’s one Idaho race that I was worried about, if anything, more than the presidential election. All last night I was refreshing the results on the secretary of state website, without a really large lead opening up either way. 51%-49%, almost the entire night. Sometimes one candidate would be up a few hundred or maybe a couple thousand votes, sometimes the other. This morning the results are in, and Walt Minnick beat Bill Sali! I cannot tell you what a relief this is. Bill Sali voted against restrictions on dogfighting and cockfighting, funding to fix bridges in bad need of repair, Special Olympics funding, and a whole slew of other projects that were either vitally needed or just downright meanspirited to vote against (Really? Our budget’s so bloated, we can’t afford to fund the Special Olympics, WHICH IS HOLDING THEIR WINTER GAMES IN IDAHO?) He voted directly against rural Idaho’s interests when he voted against student loan forgiveness for nurses who serve in areas of need and timber payments to rural schools and towns. As part of his grandstanding on the minimum wage bill, he proposed a bill to repeal the law of gravity. He thinks abortions cause breast cancer. He’s implied God will punish the U.S. because Minnesota elected a Muslim representative. I, for one, am tired of being represented by an idiot.

    Walt Minnick is a fantastic choice for Idaho. He’s a moderate Democrat who’s served in the military, been the CEO of a natural resources company, and served in the Nixon White House. I think he’ll keep Idaho’s interests in mind.

  398. Hogenmogen
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:15 pm [Reply]

    I’m reading the posts, and I’m surprised at the representation from the right wing at this site. I’ve been posting in the past with the assumption that this site attracted sort of left-leaning folk. Maybe I should temper my infuriation with Mallard and all his inane observations and non-funny attempts at humor.
    #95 – Anonymous – Wow, what an amazing prediction. Amazingly bad. It’s about as noteworthy as McCain boldly predicting that he’d win in Pennsylvania and the nation because he can “feel it”. I’m not going to shill for either blue or red, but the irrational argument “it is so because I feel it is so” has always annoyed me. After being proven wrong, it is dismissed as just campaign fluff. If you’re right, then you go back and use your “feeling” as an excuse to do just about any damn thing you want because you “feel good” about it. Bah. Without facts, it’s just so much conspiracy theory.

    And as a note – four years ago I had to refute my Democrat friends who had some “feeling” that Bush would lose and some speculative theories on how it would be by a landslide.

  399. AMC
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:21 pm [Reply]

    I can’t believe the lack of important election information on this thread.

    Mike Patterson WON!

  400. canadian pinko
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:21 pm [Reply]

    Hi Rocetboy! If you take taxes as theft then, sure, you don’t to be taxed.
    But you probably agree that some things have to be paid by the community. One example that is usually acceptable to all parties is national defense. What you pay in taxes is not money that you lose completely because what you don’t pay in taxes usually has to be paid some other way.

    Now, if you want to gripe about mismanagement of taxation revenue, that is something else!

  401. odinthor
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:25 pm [Reply]

    I suspect that voters of all stripes, all persuasions, all opinions and affiliations, the victorious and the defeated alike, can join together this morning, hold each other’s hand, look deep into each other’s eyes, and think to themselves, all as one, “Heh heh heh! To you and your kind!”. And that’s why we smile a lot in democracies…

  402. dimestore lipstick
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:31 pm [Reply]

    anonymous @390
    Greg Stillson, a/k/a “The guy in The Dead Zone” was played by Martin Sheen in the movie version–and that is why I never once in 8 years watched “The West Wing”.

    I don’t care that they gave him a different name–I just couldn’t watch a show where that guy got to be president.

  403. Hogenmogen
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:33 pm [Reply]

    #390 – anon says “Sarah Palin can go back home and, if she wishes, take a big fat crap on the pristine white snow in the yard in front of her big red house, and there will be no cameras to record the moment.”

    Not true, those Ruskies are watching all the time.

    #391 – Bootsy – I said that as a joke. I’m a sporatic reader. I just read the Alvin Maker series from Orson Scott Card, and it was excellent. Thanks for asking.

    #393 – Les – You’re in England? What’s up with those English comics? Anything decent? All I know of English stuff is Andy Capp and Fred Basset, neither of which I still read. I got a collection of them from a British couple who visited me in the 70s. They were weird. The characters all seemed to have one single obscure characteristic that would make for a stupid joke once or twice. But every day was a bit monotonous. Like some Wear-It-Out-Willie guy who would instantly wear things out as soon as he touched them. He won a golf bet because he wore out a path between his ball and the hole, for instance. Oh, the hilarity. The Toffs vs. the Tuffs seemed to be two families engaged in perpetual class warfare, with the richer folk always getting the short end. You’d think that after a year of losing, they’d eventually just stop flaunting their riches as it would inevitably lead to financial disaster and public embarrasment, but no, they would return just as cocky each following week.

    #397 – Gold Digging Nanny says ” Bill Sali voted against restrictions on dogfighting and cockfighting…” Woo-hoo! Now I know where I’m going to conduct my Dog-on-Racoon Smackdown Spectacular (to be televised soon on ESPN 8 – “The Ocho”).

  404. AMC
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:37 pm [Reply]

  405. Calico
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:39 pm [Reply]

    #364 – Maybe it is a new name for Jeremy Duncan’s white-fro. : )

  406. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 1:59 pm [Reply]

    I can only dream of one day earning enough money to support a family and maybe go on a vacation once in a while, and I hope that when I reach that stage, I never become one of those people who gripes and complains about “not being able to keep what I earned”.

    If you can afford to raise a family, own a car, take vacations, have pets and hobbies, and have some money stored away in case of emergency, then you have nothing to complain about.

    Maybe some people are just bitter, greedy, selfish, and spoiled.

    Frankly, I don’t believe the myth that if you have a lot of money, it’s because you “earned” it. Sure, a lot of rich people work hard, but a lot of poor people work hard too. The difference is usually having luck on top of the hard work: being born into the right family, knowing the right people at the right time, and so on. Or, you know, just making your life be about making money, rather than making it be about trying to be a nice person and trying to find something to do that you love.

  407. RJE
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:08 pm [Reply]

    363 – Tweeks_Coffee:

    Thank you very much, that made me smile. =) And Indiana actually DID go blue! There were still precincts that needed to turn in their tallies by the time Obama gave his speech – which is, frankly, embarrassing – but we got to wake up to a beautiful blue sky in my beautiful blue state. I teared up again, lol.

  408. StrangeRover
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:10 pm [Reply]

    Wednesday FC: You’re FAT, Dolly! FAT and WORTHLESS!

  409. Howabominable (aka Lindsey ^_^)
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:24 pm [Reply]

    I know that this example has been done to death, but if you don’t want to pay taxes, fine: you shouldn’t have to. But when your house catches fire, don’t expect the fire department to help you. When your home is burglarized, don’t expect the police to give a damn. Oh, and public schools? No way, taxpayers pay for that, and you aren’t a tax payer. Representation in congress? Why would you ever need that?

    The fact is, we NEED to pay taxes. All these protections and safeties we’ve come to enjoy come from our taxes. The government doesn’t just take them because they’re greedy morons (well they are, but that’s besides the point). They take them to give you services that you use every day – the DMV, the fire department, the police department, public schools, homeland security, paying for congress, paying for teachers, etc. If you want these perks, you have to pay taxes. And I have no problem whatsoever with it.

    I do, however, have problems with them raising taxes when they don’t need to. Billions of dollars are “lost” every year by corrupt suits embezzling taxpayer dollars. So many pork projects that are none of the federal government’s business cost us billions of dollars. And instead of cutting these out, they ask for more money.

    I personally don’t mind this tax release, but I would love to see a government that could eliminate all this useless spending and spend the money in a worthwhile place. I’m fine with universal health care, but if there’s a way we can get it without getting a ton of debt or taxing the hell out of people, we should go with it. The problem is, the government is just not responsible when it comes to spending our hard-earned money. So I have no problem with people complaining about that. But complaining that you don’t get to keep all the money you earn is useless. If you are a citizen of this country and reap the benefits of what living here gives (a LOT of benefits), you shouldn’t mind paying taxes.

    Not a lot of people say this, but I’m still proud to be an American, and I’m pretty proud of what happened last night. There was no corruption, no scandals, the people voted for who they wanted, the opponent backed out graciously. It was a breath of fresh air.

  410. Bootsy
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:42 pm [Reply]

    # 403, Hogenmogen, no shit. I was joking too. I do that here. I’ll have to look up what “sporatic” means. Maybe I’m one of those kinds of readers too!

  411. The Waz
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:58 pm [Reply]

    #398 I’m a bit of a centrist with leaning both left and right. I will admit to more right than left. However, MF is just incomprehensible crap.

    Taxes: I don’t mind paying taxes. Taxes are the only way to keep the government running. What I do mind is the graduated tax system. A percentage based system forces a person making more money to pay more. 10% of $100 is $10. 10% of $1000 is 100. Why should I have to pay a greater percentage of my money just because I make more?

  412. Calico
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:03 pm [Reply]

  413. Tweeks_Coffee
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:15 pm [Reply]

    In case you haven’t seen it, has a pretty cool Obama tribute up now. Plus there’s a link at the bottom to see the original version which is hilarious.

  414. Hal Jordan
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:29 pm [Reply]

    #411 The Waz: Why do we have a graduated income tax?
    Simple. There is a certain level of income needed just to survive. If a person makes less than that, they need every penny to survive. These people pay no taxes. Above that, you can (barely) afford certain luxuries such as a used car or occasional dental care. These people are taxed a little bit more. Above that are people who can afford to take a modest vacation and buy presents for their kids at Christmastime. These people are taxed a little more. And so on.
    Basically, if there was a flat 10% tax across all income levels, the $1,000 taken from the guy making $10k a year means he is going to go hungry. The $10k taken from the guy who makes $100k means he is going to have to give up some luxury such as a nice vacation or a new TV.
    That’s why we have a graduated income tax.

  415. UncleJeff
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:30 pm [Reply]

    Hi there folks. The election’s over (except in Minnesota) and I think it’s time to shut down this party and get back to critiquing comics.
    If you’ll all move over to the corner of the room.
    Truman, please move the goats outside.
    Mark Trail recommended this “Troll-B-Gon” fumigator. Mark said it would clear the website of all unwanted political pests.
    Just whack that nozzle-thingie off and Mark said let the aerosol take care of the rest.

    There, now don’t inhale anything for a couple of minutes

    OK (“kaff kaff”) Go along with your day. (“huaaaaack”) Get back to work. (“euggggggh”)

  416. Lake Eerie
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:30 pm [Reply]

    Hey, this is still going on? I thought we fixed all that last night!

  417. Anson Pants
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:37 pm [Reply]

    Nazzy == Asked by Todd Rundgren to sit in on drums ?

  418. Uncle Lumpy
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:40 pm [Reply]

    Nazzy = “Snazzy”, but without that lame, retro “S” thingie.

  419. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:47 pm [Reply]

    Until Josh opens a new thread, I’m content to stew in my election juices on this one. I’m becoming quite tender! Meanwhile, I’d like to order a round of Nazzys for all my friends. Barkeep!

  420. Alfred E. Neuman
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:52 pm [Reply]

    Thank you for the very special thread that has allowed everyone to vent their political crap. But UncleJeff and Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed are right. It’s time to get back to our regular snarkin’, you betcha. May we now have a new thread so that we can vent our pent-up comics crap?
    Thanks again!

  421. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 5th, 2008 at 3:56 pm [Reply]

    Alfred E. Neuman, amigo, don’t forget that people are pleasantly snarking on comics just next door in real time! And I’m going to order up a round of Nazzys for them, too!


  422. bats :[
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:06 pm [Reply]

    A local coffee house had on its marquee this morning, “Well, that’s over.”


    Condolences to CA on Prop. 8 passing (or whatever it did to deep-six same-sex marriage). AZ passed a proposition for a state constitutional amendment for defining marriage as “one man, one woman”.
    Sigh. There go all my hopes for a “one man, one woman, one squirrel monkey” triad…

  423. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:11 pm [Reply]

    Thanks for providing this space for us to rant about political topics, Josh, and thanks to the majority of the commenters who kept it civil, respectful, and interesting.

  424. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:18 pm [Reply]

    #422 bats:[
    Thanks, from a Californian who tried to sink Prop 8. My condolences on the loss of your M-W-SqM marriage definition. Then again, a squirrel monkey once defecated on my head, so to hell with them.

  425. Anonymous
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:23 pm [Reply]

    Anonymous@95 Despite your blowhardbrevity, you lose.

  426. gh
    November 5th, 2008 at 4:43 pm [Reply]

    #423 Skullturf Q. Beavispants –

    I mean, honestly, are we the most decrepit bunch of flamers or what? It’s all “I beg to differ” this and “I really don’t see your point” that. Outside of a couple “SUCK IT”s and “you idiot”s it’s all . . . just . . . *sputter*


    Anyway, no offence intended [d'oh!].

    Comics Curmudgeon = CC = Common Courtesy

  427. Mark
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:02 pm [Reply]

    #383: Mike Patterson won the position of Clerk of Courts.


  428. Chelizz
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:03 pm [Reply]

    The caption on today’s Family Circus can easily be use for any Cathy strip…and possibly on Oprah.

  429. odinthor
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:09 pm [Reply]

    422. bats :[

    Condolences to CA on Prop. 8 passing (or whatever it did to deep-six same-sex marriage).

    I have a notion that this was, to some degree, a sort of inverse coattail effect—that is, a portion of those who somewhat begrudgingly decided to vote for Change in the form of Obama placated their nagging doubts (“Should we change?”) by opting for traditionalism on other matters on the ballot. In other words, these hyper-cautious souls were rattled by their daring in voting for someone they considered disjunct from the politics to which they were accustomed, and hastily retreated to what they considered the safety of “the way things always have been” to soothe their alarm. Just a theory.

    Sigh. There go all my hopes for a “one man, one woman, one squirrel monkey” triad…

    Oh, not at all. Come over to my place. I’ll be the man.

  430. PeteMoss
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:10 pm [Reply]

    Why can’t Anonymous and Anonymous agree to disagree for once? We’re all Anonymous-Americans here, am I right? I’m betting that even “Joshua Fruhlinger” is a made-up name invented by our host to aid in his Hollywood career.

  431. Islamorada Girl
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:12 pm [Reply]

    Remember Nazzy ‘n’ Peaches? It was inked by Sherm Whozo and ran from 1942-68. Great strip! The chubby kickline of chorines behind Peaches used to fascinate me, as did Nazzy’s porkpie hat.
    What was the name of their monkey?

    The Waz: say, didn’t you used to date Kathy Griffin?

  432. The"Waz
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:13 pm [Reply]

    414 – Hal Jordan

    I understand the concept of those who should pay no taxes; I’ve worked minimum wage (way back when it was 3.35 an hour; I’m sure there are folks here that have worked when it was much less). I disagree that anybody beyond a certain point should have to pay a larger percentage.

  433. The Dead Acorn
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:16 pm [Reply]

    re: Taxes …

    I’ll be running in 2010 in ID-02 on the Fiscally Appropriate & Responsible Taxation & Spending platform.

    Yes, I’m running purely on FARTS.

  434. Dr. Weird
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:16 pm [Reply]

    429 Odinthor – From what I’ve been reading, Prop 8. passed in part because of the large minority turnout Obama stimulated. Exit polling was showing that black and hispanic voters have strongly negative opinions on gay issues. So it wasn’t a “balance” thing.

  435. UncleJeff
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:21 pm [Reply]

    Damn it, Trail…you told me that stuff worked.
    Now all I got is a roomful of people with green fungus stuff growing out of their foreheads.
    That’s the last time I trust your advice on fumigants.

  436. Lesser Whark
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:30 pm [Reply]

    @425 Anonymous:
    Curiously, that exact same text by 95 ‘Anonymous’ also appears on Docweasel’s blog. Now, this doesn’t automatically mean that ‘Anonymous’ is Docweasel. It may just be that the Docweasel blog author is plagiarizing from CC comments…

  437. Bootsy
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:31 pm [Reply]

    UncleJeff, I have this mental picture of Josh (sounding a LOT like my mom) standing at the door saying “Well, have all you little brats gotten it out of your systems now? Are you ready to come inside and play nice together? Well, are you?”

    Sheepishly (though True Fable may say it goatishly) we all say, “Yes ma’am sir”.

  438. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:32 pm [Reply]

    If there’s a minimum wage, why not a maximum wage?

    No person needs, say, ten million dollars. We can quibble about the exact point at which people should pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes, but I see progressive tax rates as a corrective against hoarding and greed.

    It’s a natural extension of the millennia-old idea that if you’ve got a group of people sharing a garden, it’s wrong for one person to keep too many vegetables for themselves, especially if it’s far more vegetables than they could ever eat.

    If you make the rules so that richer people get taxed at a higher rate, then it’s not stealing. It’s just the rules that everyone has agreed on.

  439. True Fable
    November 5th, 2008 at 5:49 pm [Reply]

    The fat lady is ready to sing!

  440. bats :[
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:08 pm [Reply]

    433. The Dead Acorn: I think that’s also known as the “Floofer Ticket.” The symbol is a flatulent raccoon.

  441. Lake Eerie
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:08 pm [Reply]

    430 PeteMoss
    I for one think it’s about time Anonymous learned to work with Anonymous. Now is the time for Anonymous healing, so reach across the aisle, take Anonymous’ hand and move forward as we celebrate what makes us all so Anonymous.

    Of course, we need to concede that the campaign did generate a lot of Anonymousity…

  442. The\"Waz
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:13 pm [Reply]

    438 – We’ll have to agree to disagree. Your point is valid if we all planted the same amount. I worked my tail off to get to where I am at. I continue to work my tail off to make what I make. For someone to come in and decide…’Nope, you are making too much’. Thats BS. And no, I am not at a point where the increase would impact me. Yet. In fact, I’m not even close.

  443. Alfred E. Neuman
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:25 pm [Reply]

    OK, still no new thread. Hmm, I guess it’s time to vent my own political crap. Since, at 65, I am probably the oldest Curmudgeon, (I remember walking 5 miles to school every day in the snow when I was growing up in San Diego), I’ll give you the benefit of my ancient wisdom.

    The main fear the Republicans expressed was that Obama is some sort of socialist. That term is hurled a bit too freely these days, I think. I’ve traveled behind the old Iron Curtain and have seen the real thing. It was an ugly sight. Russia, despite having more natural resources than any other country, could barely feed its people, or its tourists. I lost 10 pounds in three weeks. Each day, housewifes would line up at 6am in front of butcher shops, hoping to get some meat before it ran out. Basic goods of all sorts were in short supply, except for beer and, surprisingly, ice cream, which was plentiful but expensive. I could go on with many other examples, but nothing Obama has proposed would take us anywhere near the horrors that real socialism would present. He’s not even close to the proto-socialist western democracies like the Scandinavian countries. In 1978 while in Norway (a spectacularly beautiful country, BTW), I looked at a new Toyota Corolla. In the US the Corolla had a sticker price of about $4,000. In Oslo, it was $11,000. The difference: taxes. As much as I liked Norway, as a car guy I could never live in a place where taxes nearly triple the cost of a car. Despite everyone groaning about having to pay the IRS, we are not too bad off here, tax-wise. Whatever you think about Obama, you have to admit he is a smart guy. He knows that it would be an enormous political mistake to take us very far in the direction of Norway (much less Soviet Russia), so I’m not too worried about that.

    Another reason I don’t share many people’s concerns about Obama is our constitutional system of checks and balances. As the years go by, I am increasingly impressed with the brilliance and wisdom of our founding fathers. When a president leans too far to the left or right, the checks and balances usually bring him back into line. The most radical president of the 20th century, FDR, who apparently believed that the constitution was an optional advisory document, was steered back to the center by a conservative Supreme Court. Rightists Nixon and Reagan and leftist Clinton were also steered to the center by Congress and/or the Supreme Court and/or their own common sense. Since Obama will have a conservative Supreme Court to deal with, (and he also seems to have a lot of common sense) he will likely not stray too far from the center.

    The only time in recent history where the checks and balances failed was the first six years of the G. W. Bush administration. With a conservative Republican Congress, and a conservative Supreme Court failing to either check or balance, Bush was able to take on unprecedented executive powers, and became, in concert with his rigid ideological groupthinking neocon buddies, the most radical president ever. We all saw how well that worked out. In contrast, even FDR appointed conservative Republicans to powerful cabinet positions.

    If Obama appoints cabinet members and advisors with differing points of view, (as he has promised), and he listens to them, he will likely avoid G. W. Bush-style groupthink. (To be fair and balanced, I think McCain would have deliberately tried to avoid groupthink as well.) If Obama does that, we’ll be OK. In conclusion, my current response to Obama is, What, me worry?

  444. Carl
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:39 pm [Reply]

    The neoconservatives designed and built a toilet using lies and fear, greed and fanny kisses, class and cultural divisions and massive corruption. They then enlisted an imbecile to sit on the toilet. The American people have flushed the Republican toilet, its toxic content beginning to ferment in history books and attorney-generals’ in-boxes. Soon gallows will be built and neoconservative toxins will hang.

  445. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:41 pm [Reply]

    I believe that in practice in many many cases, the rich person and the poor person did plant the same amount of vegetables and did work equally hard as one another.

  446. Jumper
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:52 pm [Reply]


  447. Lake Eerie
    November 5th, 2008 at 6:59 pm [Reply]

    444 Carl
    Well, that’s an appetizing metaphor

  448. Moggie
    November 5th, 2008 at 11:39 pm [Reply]

    The problem with any economic system, be it capitalism or socialism, is that there will always be those who do the adult equivalent of throwing a tantrum and screaming, “BUT I DON’T WAAAAAANNA SHARE! AND YOU CAN’T MAKE ME!” If you have more money than you need or can possibly spend, the only reason not to “spread the wealth” is because you are a selfish, amoral child. There is something fundamentally wrong with grown adults who behave like that, and that is why reasonable people dislike them.

  449. Poteet
    November 6th, 2008 at 12:16 am [Reply]

    # 380 Islamorada Girl — I still say I would have picked your TR/T entry as the winner. That’s not to say I think my judgement is any better than that of Josh *pause to genuflect,* just that your inspired prose hit the spot for me.

    (I also wouldn’t have picked my Margo comment for the float, but I’m very glad Josh differed with me on that one:-).

    And goodness, if that’s the worst “bad behavior” you ever display, you’re an Islamorada saint.

  450. DavidMac
    November 6th, 2008 at 12:34 am [Reply]

    Skullturf @ 106:

    I’m American, not Canadian. I grew up in Pittsburgh and graduated high school in 1963. In school, we followed the news about the Quebec separatist movement and their tactic of placing bombs in mailboxes so the mail carrier would get his hand blown off when delivering the mail.

    But, yeah, the separatists don’t REALLY hate Canada, do they now?

    PS: My mother was Canadian and I’ve travelled extensively in Quebec and Ontario.

  451. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 6th, 2008 at 12:59 am [Reply]

    I guess I would say the bad thing is blowing people up. I don’t really care which national ideals people hate or don’t hate.

  452. Lisa
    November 6th, 2008 at 2:19 am [Reply]

    The election is over. It’s been real. Bye.

  453. ms. docweasel
    November 6th, 2008 at 6:24 am [Reply]

    oh well, we fought the good fight. Palin will be back, much to you lefties’ dismay.

    In other news, check the IP’s “josh”, people were posting using my screen name and putting words in my mouth in this thread: where are the bannings you promised? Actually, I don’t care, it’s just funny since you made a big deal about it in your righteous anger in another thread.

    As I said in another post, it’s stupid to threaten bannings and etc. when comments are the wild west: there’s really nothing you can do about them and it’s pathetic and silly to act like you can.

  454. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 6th, 2008 at 7:58 am [Reply]

    #453 mdw: Perhaps we could pause for a moment, and emulate Sarah Palin’s example of public grace and dignity before we hit the submit button. Or, if you prefer, consult with the better angels of our nature (heh!), asking ourselves why one would want to return to a blog, time and time again, in order to be condescending, deliberately insulting, and/or abusive.

  455. Mark
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:03 am [Reply]

    450 David Mac: “Separatists” and “The FLQ” are not interchangeable, any more that “Docweasel” and “Republican” or “liberal” and “socialist” are.

    454: Spotted Horse: It does it to drive up traffic to its blog. Given that a few people here have pointed out where it has cross-posted content, it has been successful.

  456. someone from Texas....
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:12 am [Reply]

    This particular Lefty found Palin quite amusing. In fact, she appealed to my Inner Snarker–the one who laughed (while cringing) at the Foobpocalypse & gazes in amazed horror at Funky Winkerbean.

    Her former allies are the ones who want her to Just Go Away.

  457. docweasel
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:13 am [Reply]

    Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed and Mark

    hey bite me assholes. Someone or someone’s were posting and signing as me. I have no right to at least comment on it? 2ndly, where do you get off telling me to emulate grace when you have so little of your own.

    I posted political opinions, slamming Obama and no one on the “forum” and 1000 Obamabots started attacking me personally, saying what a terrible person I am, and telling me to “SUCK IT”. So now you’re accusing me of being uncivil. Well, ok then, fuck you. There, self-fulfilling prophecy. If you attack someone long enough, they become uncivil.

    I’ll be sure and post here 20x a day from now on just to piss you intolerant assholes off ;)

  458. docweasel
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:19 am [Reply]

    and btw, Mark, the site (we make nothing from the blog, so why they hell would I care to drive up hits there?) gets about 250k pagehits a day. I hardly think I need to drive up bandwidth costs by posting in comments threads. It is quite interesting to see what pages the CC commenters gravitated to on our site though ;)

  459. Mark
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:37 am [Reply]

    457: You don’t need my permission to post sweetie, and I never implied otherwise. As you yourself have pointed out that you’re not getting the reasoned, dispassionate political debate you crave here, I was merely speculating as to what else could be compelling you to post. Leeching off the popularity of a superior blog to promote your own site was the most logical reason that I could think of. Unless, of course, you’re trying to win hearts and minds for next time, in which case I would recommend more swearing and name-calling: studies show it really is the most effective way of winning people around to your point of view.

  460. Anonymous
    November 6th, 2008 at 11:21 am [Reply]

    #448 the problem with any economic system is that when a government legistlates money lending to people with bad credit to support a lifestyle beyond their means, people whose taxes go up to support the inevitable bailout get a little peeved.

    owning a house is a luxury not a right. that is true in any economic system. the five percent of people who nearly bankrupted this country by buying what they could not afford, owe a huge debt of gratitude to the five percent of the population whose whose tax dollars will allow them to stay in their homes.

    i have no problem supporting social security and healthcare but when tax dollars get used to bail out wreckless consumers, i feel disgusted. i feel even more saddened that many people lost their jobs due to this ignoble experiment in giving people more than they deserve.

  461. Paul1963
    November 6th, 2008 at 1:16 pm [Reply]

    Y’know, the people who got those mortgages they can no longer pay for those houses they can no longer afford didn’t get there all by themselves. Presumably, they sat down with a mortgage broker who went over their finances and determined what they could afford to spend.
    (At least, that’s what happened when I bought my house back in 1997.)
    Since you have to bring things like tax returns and recent pay stubs and bank statements and such, I have to conclude that many of these mortgage brokers chose to disregard that information in order to write those loans. Or persuaded the customers to accept terms that looked good in the short term, but which have now come back to bite them in the ass. “Okay, based on this and the amount you have for a down payment, you only qualify for $50,000. But there aren’t any houses in this market in the range that puts you in. Are you expecting a raise this year? How much? Okay, we’ll list that as your income and that’ll get you an extra few grand. And you can get an ARM instead of a fixed rate. You say you can afford this much for your payment–and chance at all you can squeeze out another couple hundred? How about a hundred and fifty? Can you come up with more for the down payment?..” You get the idea–the broker gets the loan, he gets his commission, the bank then sells the loan to another outfit and it’s out of their hands. The buyer has now put down more money than they budgeted, has a higher monthly payment than they can really afford and if they get laid off or have some other financial issue they’re screwed because they trusted someone who was supposed to look out for their interests and didn’t. There’s a reason they call this “predatory” lending.

    When I decided to buy a house, I came into the office with a down-payment amount in mind and a monthly-payment amount in mind. Before I loked at any houses, my agent sat me down with a mortgage broker. The guy looked over my financials, took those targets into account and said, “You can buy a house that costs this much and get the low end of your payment range, or you can buy one that costs this much for your top payment.” I only looked at houses that fell between those two figures (or which my agent thought we could deal down to my range), stuck to my down-payment amount and ended up with a house I could actually afford. And I got a fixed-rate mortgage, so the only thing that drove my payment up was my property taxes.

  462. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 6th, 2008 at 2:31 pm [Reply]

    Just in the interest of pointing out common ground, let me observe that even though I left comments earlier in favor of taxing the wealthy at a higher rate than the less wealthy, I also agree with the recent comments that owning a house is a privilege rather than a right, and that it’s problematic to legislate that money must be lent to people with bad credit to facilitate buying a home.

    I guess I say that in order to point out that it’s possible both to be sympathetic to the idea of “tax the rich” but also to have some skepticism about some particular things that could be considered “handouts”.

  463. docweasel
    November 6th, 2008 at 3:00 pm [Reply]

    owning a house is a privilege instead of a right?

    sheesh, there goes 5 centuries of English Common Law, the basis of our own Constitution :p

    liberals are always conflating the right to do something with the imperative to do it: just because you have the right to do it, it’s not incumbent on the government to facilitate everyone’s financial ability to exercise every single right.

    You have the right to a gun, that doesn’t mean the government should buy you one.

    and to the guy above who called me sweetie, listen, I’m flattered, and even a little curious, but I don’t swing that way. Not saying anything is wrong with your life choice, it’s just not mine, sir. Sorry about Prop 8, you must be devastated.

    - docweasel but not .ms

  464. Hogenmogen
    November 6th, 2008 at 4:36 pm [Reply]

    I am so enraged that so many people in this country did not vote for my candidate! What is wrong with all of you? How could you possibly hold beliefs and opinions that are contrary to mine! For example, if you start with an unassailable premesis or two, I reach one conclusion whereas so many other people have reached the exact OPPOSITE conclusion! My God, with all these people in the country, there is no hope and we will all meet certain doom! If you disagree with that, then the terrorists have already won!

  465. Hogenmogen
    November 6th, 2008 at 4:38 pm [Reply]

    And all of you who will assail my world view because I mixed up the singluar “premis” with the plural “premesis” are exactly the ones that I’m talking about. I did mix it up, but I refuse to apologize. How do you like THEM apples, huh?

  466. someone from Texas....
    November 6th, 2008 at 4:47 pm [Reply]

    458. So–docweasal is a Collective?

  467. Anonymous
    November 6th, 2008 at 4:59 pm [Reply]

    paul – i am sympathetic to those who were flimflammed by mortgage brokers. but in the end, the collective common sense that prevented this type of housing debacle for most of my lifetime was sadly lacking over the past few years.

    reading this thread, i am disappointed at the lack of understanding of how the country works. many people here think that income taxes pay for local schooling, police and fire, when infact property taxes and local sales taxes pay for the vast majority of local services. those taxes are not based on income. people who do not own a home pay nothing directly for police, fire and school services.

    the thrilling thing about modern democracy is that those who pay no income taxes or own no property have the same vote as those who pay the most in taxes. giving everyone a vote makes society work much more smoothly. however, that dichotomy makes it very tempting for politicians to redistribute wealth in order to win votes.

  468. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 6th, 2008 at 5:51 pm [Reply]

    463 docweasel — I guess there are different senses of the word “right” in everyday informal speech. Perhaps what I meant was owning a home is a privilege rather than an entitlement. Or that there’s no rule saying that everyone gets to own a home.

    Obviously everyone has the “right” to buy a home in the sense that if they happen to have the money, you can’t prevent them.

    I think this particular disagreement is purely about semantics. I actually agree with you that some on the left can be guilty of conflating different senses of the word “right”. For example, people who advocate lower university tuition fees sometimes say “Education is a right”.

    While I’m sympathetic to the idea of postsecondary education being accessible to people born into all sorts of different families, I can’t get completely on board with the phrasing of the slogan “Education is a right”.

    I believe that phrasing tends to confuse (i) “Everybody deserves an opportunity to become educated if they have the interest and the time, even if they were unlucky enough to be born into a poor or non-socially-connected family” with (ii) “Everybody should have specialized instruction provided to them, with the cost of that instruction covered by somebody else.”

    I believe it’s entirely appropriate for some of our tax dollars to go to programs that support some people at the expense of others (e.g. some sort of welfare program for people with disabilities that prevent them from working) but I also believe in honestly acknowledging that the money has to come from somewhere.

  469. loudfan
    November 6th, 2008 at 6:09 pm [Reply]

    How about cartoons about the election? Here is one I made — though it’s only recommended for people who spent way too much time in the 70s reading comic books.

  470. Gold-Digging Nanny
    November 6th, 2008 at 6:13 pm [Reply]

    Dead Acorn @ 433: The Fiscally Appropriate & Responsible Taxation & Spending (FARTS) platform? Sure, why not! You might get as many votes as Pro-Life. Or, as he was known on the ballot, “Pro-Life (a person formerly known as Marvin Richardson).”

    So, ID-02? Are you in Boise? *Squeal!* Mudge Meet! Mudge Meet! Mudge Meet!

  471. Carl
    November 6th, 2008 at 6:29 pm [Reply]

    447 Lake Eerie:

    Is Lake Eerie a mysterious place? Anyhow, sorry for the unappetizing metaphor, but placing Republican achievements in a toilet bowl is tame. Neoconservatives need to open their eyes and give themselves a colorectal exam.

  472. Lake Eerie
    November 6th, 2008 at 7:59 pm [Reply]

    472 Carl
    Only when the bay freezes over, allowing people to walk on water (rumor has it our President-elect doesn’t need it to be frozen, but the jury’s still out on that)

  473. Jimmy
    November 6th, 2008 at 8:55 pm [Reply]

    When all the smoke clears, I see a new sunrise up ahead. It’s nice to know we are clambering back onto the road that leads to decency, fairness, and compassion. We’ve had enough of selfishness, greed, and penury. And I can’t wait for the indictments to begin: Bush… Rove… Cheney… Harrison… lirs, thieves, and murderers, all.

    Good night.

  474. dale
    November 6th, 2008 at 9:15 pm [Reply]

    SQB – 468

    Well put. I hope people understand.

  475. Ms. Embargo
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:36 pm [Reply]

    The other thread was already locked by the time I found it. I just want to thank y’all for explaining who Dolly was dressed as for Halloween, because I seriously could NOT figure it out. I was thinking maybe she was the schoolmarm from Little House On The Prairie.

  476. Spotted HØrse, Jungle Steed
    November 6th, 2008 at 10:59 pm [Reply]

    #457 docweasel, or ms. docweasel:

    I’ll be sure and post here 20x a day from now on just to piss you intolerant assholes off ;)

    Aw, as long as you leaven your rants with Lincoln’s wise, compassionate words, you’re sure to have my alert appreciation, because, well, I can’t help it, I get a little misty. It’s… deeply stirring. I’m stirred.

  477. Lucon Talestar
    November 6th, 2008 at 11:00 pm [Reply]

    For the record, I don’t hate Docweasel because he thinks there’s something wrong with people who disagree with him. I hate him because he’s a furry.

  478. Frank Parsnip
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:16 am [Reply]

    Still recovering from the election watch parties and celebrations… a bit hoarse from the press here in sunny Taihoku and from all the Democrat events. Met with the local head of the Republican party here and they had nothing going on. Head of the McCain campaign here is 100% sure that they would have won if only they “got out the base” and had attacked Obama more.

  479. docweasel III (not ms. nor the regular dw)
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:46 am [Reply]


    the answer to that is electing people who nominate and confirm conservative judges

    liberal judges are the ones who come up with these “rights”- frankly Brown vs. BOE was a bad decision based on a bad interpretation of the law, no matter how “just” some minorities found it to be

    it should not be for the courts to redress past wrongs, it should be for the courts to enforce the law and interpret whether or not those laws are constitutional

    instead, they find new rights and “penumbras”

    and that’s what the hell is the problem with the stuff you describe

  480. Anonymous
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:32 am [Reply]

    #473 jimmy, i love how you speak about being on the road to decency, fairness and compasison and then call the president a murderer and thief.

    it sounds to me like you are on the path to revolution, sedition and vengence. try to get over it and be a decent member of society.

  481. DavidMac
    November 7th, 2008 at 12:49 pm [Reply]

    455 Mark:

    My point was that Quebec separatists were maiming Canadian postal workers in the name of “freedom” from the “oppressive” government in Ottawa.

    Seems the leftists in the states (Ayers & Dorn) used the same tactics back in the 1960′s – 1970′s (i.e., bombing innocent people) to prove their political points.

    Do you understand why we look at Obama with such a jaundiced eye?

  482. Paul1963
    November 7th, 2008 at 1:46 pm [Reply]

    DavidMac @481: You might have a point if Ayers was still involved in bombings and such today, but since he hasn’t been involved in anything like that for over thirty years, it seems like quite a reach to use those activities as a reason to attack someone who was not, himself, involved in those activities, didn’t know Ayers when those activities were going on and was in grade school at the time.
    If, at some point in the future, I should become acquainted with someone who burned draft records, or smashed windows, or turned over a police car, during an anti-war protest in 1969, I do not automatically become complicit in those offenses. I wasn’t there. I was six. It’s the same deal with Obama and Ayers. Obama wasn’t involved in the acts of the Weathermen. He was eight or nine at the time and only met Ayers decades later.

  483. Anonymous
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:49 pm [Reply]

    Ayers and the weathermen never killed a single person, idiot.

  484. docweasel
    November 7th, 2008 at 2:50 pm [Reply]

    re: paul
    by your reasoning, if I made Charles Manson my mentor, it would be a wonderful thing? After all, I wasn’t even BORN when Manson did all those terrible things in the name of Revolution (or to the tune of it, anyway).

  485. jonas
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm [Reply]

    “frankly Brown vs. BOE was a bad decision” Yes, because the country went to hell once them black folks started to think they had a right to get educated.

  486. The Dead Acorn
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:30 pm [Reply]

    470 Gold Digging Nanny: Yep, in Boise. We met once at the coffee shop at a Mudge Meet (I used to use the name teegee.) I’m definitely in for another!

  487. Lake Eerie Log Chains
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:43 pm [Reply]

    484 doc
    Of course! Ayers=Manson.
    Let’s do the random association game! We’ll take anyone recently in the news and equate that person to an historical monster (serial killers, mass murderers, whatever – but skip Hitler, that’s sooooo overdone)
    Sen. Biden=Son of Sam
    Rev. Wright=Pol Pot
    Gov. Palin-Maleficient
    This is fun – keep it going; we’ll have a record number of posts

  488. PeteMoss
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:44 pm [Reply]

    docweasel III (not ms. nor the regular dw) @ #479.

    Brown v Board was not a “penumbra” case. The Brown court clearly decided the matter based on its interpretation of the 14th Amendment’s equal protecton under the law from racial descrimination. The court found that seperating schools, based only on race, was not equal, therefore the States were denying equal protection based on skin color and that violates the 14th Amendment. You MAY have more of an arguement when discussing the cases where the Supremes found a right of “privacy” within the bill of rights, but the court in Brown was not making law. The 14th amendment was passed specifically to limit the States.

  489. Little Guy
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:57 pm [Reply]

    Re: Palin in a towel and nothing else. *THUD*

    She’s a right-wing version of Juliette Burber. Hawt, but politically and socially bat-shit crazy.

  490. someone from Texas....
    November 7th, 2008 at 3:59 pm [Reply]

    Apparently the docweasel collective is nostalgic for the days of segregation. And restriction of the vote to white Protestant male landowners.

    I can understand this, as a Texan who remembers when membership in the KKK was practically a requirement for becoming a policeman in Houston. That was many years ago & HPD is just about as diverse as our city.

    But I can’t understand why the docweasel collective refuses to use the shift key. All lower case is almost as annoying as all caps.

  491. docweasel
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:14 pm [Reply]

    well s.i.texas, why not pull out the nazi card next.

    No, I don’t advocate a return to segregation. What I do advocate is a return to legislatures legislating and courts adjudicating. Roe vs. Wade is bad law. Brown vs. BOE (which has nada to do with segregation and everything to do with social engineering) is bad law.

    You can call people racists and Nazis who don’t agree with you, but that is the argument of an intellectually bankrupt person, or a cretin.

    Which are you?

    Some Constitutional originalists, notably Raoul Berger in his influential 1977 book “Government by Judiciary,” make the case that Brown cannot be defended by reference to the original understanding of the 14th Amendment. They support this reading of the 14th amendment by noting that the Civil Rights Act of 1875 did not ban segregated schools. Other originalists, including Michael W. McConnell, a federal judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, in his article “Originalism and the Desegregation Decisions,” argue that the Radical Reconstructionists who spearheaded the 14th Amendment were in favor of desegregated southern schools.

    The case also has attracted some criticism from more liberal authors, including some who say that Chief Justice Warren’s reliance on psychological criteria to find a harm against segregated blacks was unnecessary. For example, Drew S. Days has written:[38] “we have developed criteria for evaluating the constitutionality of racial classifications that do not depend upon findings of psychic harm or social science evidence. They are based rather on the principle that ‘distinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry are by their very nature odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality,’ Hirabayashi v. United States, 320 U.S. 81 (1943).

    this is just from Wikipedia, a notoriously left-leaning site dominated by leftists admins who strike anything that doesn’t adhere to the liberal line. With a bit more googling you can find a lot more.

    Try actually making coherent arguments instead of calling people racists. Maybe you’ll convince someone instead of just giving the impression that leftist and asshole are synonymous terms. I’d never be so stereotypically minded myself, I only think most of them are, and only when they open their mouths or put their fingers to a keyboard, as you did.

    Long ago leftists realized when they cannot achieve their radical aims via democracy, so they attempt to do so by judicial fiat. Liberals love the presidential election this year, and 52% means a mandate, whereas 2004′s 51% meant the election was stolen. However, they aren’t loving Prop 8 passing in CA, as similar measures did throughout the country, so they are reverting to type and resorting to the courts to impose law where it cannot be achieved by democratic (small d) means.

    And here I thought it was far-right evangelicals who were always trying to impose their morality on the rest of country, when all along it’s the left! Who knew?

  492. Little Em
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:22 pm [Reply]

    490: Capital letters are elitist. What makes those Uppercase snobs think they’ve the right to be bigger than everyone else, just because they happened to be at the beginning of a sentence or on a proper noun?

  493. PeteMoss
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:39 pm [Reply]

    491. Interesing. Even the Republican party today doesn’t dispute the reasoning in Brown. I suppose the docweasel collective must be even further to the right than mainstream Republicans. It may even be further to the right of Federalist Society. My hunch is that the docweasles held their noses while voting for John McCain because he’s too far left but was the only viable alternative. Of course, were the Republicans ever to adopt the docweasel collective’s philosphies in whole and make them public, it will never never turn those new blue states back to red.

    By the way, Bush v Gore might also be judicial activism. The Supremes overturned a State court’s interpretation of a State’s laws and they did so based on equal protection via 14th amendment. Don’t think you’ll find that clearly by simply reading the Constitution, huh?

    I’ve come to believe that the term “judicial activism” refers to the courts making decisions someone disagrees with.

  494. Lake Eerie Log Chains
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:46 pm [Reply]

    493 PeteMoss
    I think we’ve all been had by a family of right-wing performance artists.
    Ladies and gentlemen, the docweasel troupe, here to smugly present hateful diatribes and skewed analysis!
    What do they call their act?
    The Aristocrats

  495. Paul1963
    November 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm [Reply]

    docweasel @ 484: As tempting as it is to just let Lake Eerie Log Chains’ response at #487 stand in lieu of a reply of my own, I feel I must point out that William Ayers has never actually been convicted of a crime and his relationship to Barack Obama was hardly that of a “mentor.”
    Your comparison isn’t even close to valid.
    I am, of course, fully prepared for your denunciation of anything coming from the Washington Post as being tainted by a liberal bias, since they’ve had the unmitigated gall to suggest that perhaps some of the things the current administration has done were, y’know, bad.

  496. llamaface
    November 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm [Reply]

    I am not the snarkiest poster on this board, but I do post sometimes and I just thought I would say that I think most people realize that Obama isn’t going to change the world overnight. I realize he has a lot of obstacles and problems to overcome and he is untested. I think his intelligence is his advantage. I think he chose Biden to aid him and hopefully will choose a cabinet that represents both sides of the aisle. I think we all need to relax. We have four years to see how Obama will react to the problems happening now.

    Hogenmogen, your posts made me laugh so loud, my co-workers think I’m nutty. Hee, hee!

  497. Poteet
    November 7th, 2008 at 5:22 pm [Reply]

    This is the thread that never ends…it just goes on and on my friends…

  498. PeteMoss
    November 7th, 2008 at 5:53 pm [Reply]

    Welcome back my friends
    To the thread that never ends.
    We’re so glad you could atttend
    Come inside, come inside…

    Hope you guys aren’t missing out on any of the great Dick Tracy snark going on a couple of threads down.

  499. docweasel
    November 7th, 2008 at 6:05 pm [Reply]

    actually, the “team” as you call it is as about as disparate a group you could imagine, but we are pretty much in agreement about many “liberal” social issues: fair and liberal immigration policies (several are 1st or 2nd gen immigrants), gay rights (introduced by legislation, not judicial fiat) decriminalization of marijuana, against ant-abortion absolutism, the list goes on.

    several members are from communist countries and we are adamantine in our opposition to Islamofascists and communists. Obama’s flirtations with Chavez and Castro were some of the most distressing elements of his campaign to our “team members” from south of the border. We also have 2 law students, which is why the approach is to what is LEGAL, not what you think is a fair redress of past wrongs. Judges are supposed to adjudicate the LAW, not invent laws and rights. You can call it “hateful” and use other ignorant shibboleths, but the fact is, when you invent a right for one group, you might be robbing another of theirs. That’s the main problem with Brown. A better fix might have been fed funds to help improve the inner-city schools, not destroy the public school system where it actually worked and cause affluent and middle class whites to flee the district or the entire school system and go to private schools. Now, 50-60 years later, the public school system is in shambles, and Brown deserves a lot of the blame. Unintended consequences by the do-gooders who know what is best for the rest of us.

    btw, for your info, many liberals decried “Brown” because instead of increasing rights, what it did was take away the right of a majority of the students to attend neighborhood schools, and arguably set the civil rights movement BACKWARDS because of the backlash and anger it engendered.

    I’m constantly and consistently amused of intolerant and ignorant librulz lecturing me and my friends on intolerance ;)

  500. ring around the collar
    November 7th, 2008 at 6:14 pm [Reply]

    Well, as Josh evidently wants to keep fanning the flames, I do have a question for my differently-opinioned fellow Americans. I’m only asking, because for the most part, you’ve all been civil, well-reasoned, and insightful on this CC forum, as opposed to some of the rabid illiterates found elsewhere on the web. You’re still totally misguided of course, but I respect you for the thoughtful, well-mannered folk you are, and also for your choice in comix-mocking websites.

    Anyways the question, although only tangentially related to the election: George W. Bush, who is actually still technically president, has an approval rating generally hovering in the mid-twenties, and although that might seem rather bleak, it does mean that roughly one in four Americans does approve of George W. Bush and his performance.

    Never having personally met someone owning up to GWB approval myself, I am curious as to what it is exactly that his admirers admire. I won’t bore you with the litany of complaints against him, as you’ve probably all heard it before but I would appreciate if one of the one-in-fours would step up for their man, and tell me why he has earned his pension.

  501. PeteMoss
    November 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm [Reply]

    docweasel @ 499
    I don’t mean to attack or belittle anyone when I say this – Brown v. Board had two parts. School districts provided schools that were strictly for blacks and other schools strictly for whites. The schools for blacks were greatly under-funded by those districts compared to those for whites. The Court found that the State actor, in this case it’s the school districts, violated the fourteenth amendment because it was distinguishing between students based entirely on the student’s race.

    In the second part of Brown, the court fashioned a remedy for this constitutional violation. Here’s where your Federalist Society types would have a bigger problem with the Court and this may be the most controversial aspect of the decision: The remedies included bussing students from their home neighborhoods to schools in other neighborhoods to, presumably, insure all were funded equally and every child had an equal opportunity to attend as a good a school as the district could afford to provide.

    I can accept (although not necessarily agree with) the argument that the court overstepped its bounds when it fashioned a remedy to the history of State enforced segregation. However, I find it hard to believe that the docweasel collective today would find it constitutional for Kansas or any of the States to make discriminatory decisions based on race.

  502. Jorge Barnes
    November 7th, 2008 at 6:49 pm [Reply]

    @ 500
    I happen to be one of the 3 in 4′s, but I’ll point out that some of the 1 in 4′s may be using the rationale that W has had alot of bad luck. I don’t think I can disagree with that – 9/11, Katrina, housing/credit implosion; the majority of our prior presidents through history didn’t get even one of these crises to deal with. Therefore I think it’s possible that when historians rank him with his fellow presidents 50 years from now, he will end up closer to the middle of the pack, and not near the bottom…. Don’t forget there are ALOT of corrupt knucklehead ex-prez’s out there, particularly in early 20th century, who will edge him out.

    But anyway, here’s how you could spin that issue around: if you look at who are consistently rated as our top presidents, they all had to deal with crises themselves: FDR, Lincoln, etc. How W handled the aftermath of these I personally think will be called into question 50 years from now: why did he ask for the UN’s approval for Iraq invasion and then act unilaterally anyway, why did he not acknowledge New Orleans was seriously mucked up and handle it with care.

    Or, do you all think history will just rationalize, “that’s just the way things way things were in the early 21st century,” we were arrogant. Similar to how Washington and Jefferson owning slaves has been rationalized by saying “thats’ the way things were in the 18th century” ?

    I know I could not be contradicting myself more here, but I’m trying to open up the discussion without name-calling.

  503. Lucon Talestar
    November 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm [Reply]

    Wikipedia, a notoriously left-leaning site dominated by leftists admins who strike anything that doesn’t adhere to the liberal line. With a bit more googling you can find a lot more.

    There’s a lot wrong with Wikipedia, but a left lean isn’t any of it.

  504. ring around the collar
    November 7th, 2008 at 11:56 pm [Reply]

    mmm, docweasel, thank you for your measured response as to my query as to what it is that the one-in-four admire about Bush. Your point- you did have one, didn’t you? Frankly, it was kind of hard to tell, what with all the invective. But if I’m not mistaken, it was something about aid to Africa? And other sundry but unspecified “good works”?

    Thank you for clearing that up for me. I for one am all for “aid to Africa and other good works”, and am proud to have had a President who stands up for such things.

    As an aside, though, I might mention that as I am not actually an American citizen, I’m not a voter for Barack (or, if you prefer, Buttcrack) Obama or even anything but a disinterested observer. Although I must admit I was kind of disconcerted when my company started laying people off lately.

    Still, your review of George W. Bush’s good points has not gone unnoticed. Thank you for your reply.

  505. Crankenstank
    November 8th, 2008 at 12:36 am [Reply]

    Hey, would I get banned from the forum if I talked about the Comics in the designated spitting zone??

    What a bomb-thrower I am, a veritable Ignatz!!!

  506. Beware The Creeper
    November 8th, 2008 at 1:54 am [Reply]

    Best thing about Barak is that we can all Hope we will have some Change left in our pockets.

  507. alamo
    November 8th, 2008 at 2:38 am [Reply]

    for fear of bringing down the wrath of both left and right it is interesting to observe the vitriolic hatred being spewed by both sides against one another. a reason nothing great gets accomplished in the country for such a long time – all energy is spent in a downward spiral. yeah hating feels so good doesn’t it. we are all americans and everyone has value – we teach this as an ideal in our democracy. well the whole world is watching us now and i see the right wants to demonize obama before he is even sworn in. the left has expectations of him that will not be realized – jesus couldn’t make his generation happy either so they killed him. we kill each other with anger and get nowhere. we would rather impeach someone for having a zipper problem than solve looming financial crises. we would rather demonize bush than try to find any common ground. if we have a lot of unresolvable problems in our country it is because we choose not to solve them but rather hate. it is certainly a whole lot easier than working together for solutions now isn’t it? there i said my disjointed piece. resume hating.

  508. Gold-Digging Nanny
    November 8th, 2008 at 2:59 am [Reply]

    486 The Dead Acorn: Great! Solocardate’s up for it too.

  509. Matt Weiner, Defender of Sweden
    November 8th, 2008 at 8:45 am [Reply]

    370: Sweden’s economy is far from perma-flat. Here’s a chart comparing GDP growth in Sweden, the US, and the EU for the past 12 years — Sweden and the US have pretty much the exact same growth, from 1996 to 1998 when the US had really high growth, and for the past three years when Sweden was beating the US by a point.

  510. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 8th, 2008 at 1:24 pm [Reply]

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that anybody who disagrees with Brown vs BOE is, by current American standards, a racist.

    The bussing provisions of the decision were a trifle activist, but it’s important to remember that the amount of bussing actually went down. Way down. Previously, it was black students who were bussed all over the place, to compensate for living too close to white people. Let me restate: Brown vastly decreased bussing and thus made neighborhood schools, on average, more local.

    Since that decision was instrumental in ending Jim Crow, opposition to it, at this point, really implies a nostalgia for segregation. That’s crap.

    I want to resurrect Earl Warren and put him back on the court.

  511. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 8th, 2008 at 1:29 pm [Reply]

    #510: Sweden: Wait, are you bringing information into a debate with Americans about the benefits of a mixed socialist economy? You can’t do that! We all *know* that the UK’s NHS is crap and Swedes are flattened by taxes. We know it with our guts! Your fancy charts and factual claims have no place in such a discussion! Next you’re going to say that we could provide a free university education to anybody academically qualified and not plunge into an endless recession! begone with you!

  512. Tabby Lavalamp
    November 8th, 2008 at 4:12 pm [Reply]

    Docweasel, I’m no Obama fan (the misogyny directed at both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin by so many of his supporters sickened me), but I just read your blog and couldn’t comment there so I want to say here, thank you for the laughter.
    Thank you for reminding us that partisan bickering started with raging hippies after Bush was “elected” and how conservatives were so incredibly easy on Bill Clinton, never once starting a multi-million dollar witch hunt that would have found the dirt they were looking for to bring him down instead of, presumably if such a witch hunt happened, having to settle for an affair and a lie about oral sex.
    Thank you for reminding us how Bush and conservatives are the victims here who have always treated every president and every liberal with the utmost respect.
    Thank you for making me see that this isn’t gall and hypocrisy from conservatives such as yourself but a reminder that the partisan bickering started just eight short years ago.

  513. loudfan
    November 8th, 2008 at 8:07 pm [Reply]

    #500 Until recently, I was one of the lone Dems in a family of Republicans (my mom voted for Obama, yay!), but as a result I tend to have a pretty good grasp on what the rabid GOP base is thinking. The main reasons they still approve of W are (1) “he’s kept us safe from terrorists” — seriously, they believe there would have been attacks on US soil if it hadn’t been for “fighting them there so we don’t have to fight them here” — and (2) he’s lowered taxes on the rich and a lot of my relatives are rich (not me, sadly; I will benefit from those middle class tax cuts that are hopefully a-comin’). None of my relatives really care about the social issues stuff, like abortion/gay rights; they just want a strong military and low taxes.

  514. dale
    November 8th, 2008 at 9:41 pm [Reply]

    514 loudfan

    You’re right. People seldom seldom question the logic of : We haven’t been attacked; therefore, GWB has protected us.
    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. morons

  515. JumboMumbo
    November 9th, 2008 at 1:15 am [Reply]

    Hey Dale — Are you suggesting that al queda has decided that they no longer want to attack us, and that’s the reason we haven’t been attacked? If not, what other reasons would you suggest for the fact that we haven’t been attacked in over 7 years now, other than they one you seem to be dismissing?

  516. tig
    November 9th, 2008 at 1:55 am [Reply]

    I’ve been a lurkin’ at this site for well over a year. I am now driven to comment.
    doc weasel collective is a self righteous, self satisfied, lame shit-starting, lunatic with a lame website.
    Please, don’t let them continue.
    To ignore the child/megalomaniac is the worst punishment. But they sure to keep the conversation going,don’t they?

  517. Anonymous
    November 9th, 2008 at 3:24 am [Reply]

    ring around the collar: learn to read, 25 million people delivered from tyranny into at least a chance for democracy is not trivial

    tig: you aren’t really anything but a troll, posting insults to bait people, so fuck you asshole. go back to lurking

  518. docweasel
    November 9th, 2008 at 3:46 am [Reply]

    511 Les of the Jungle Patrol says:
    November 8th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that anybody who disagrees with Brown vs BOE is, by current American standards, a racist.

    Well, Less of the Jungle, arbiter of who is and who is not a racist, I guess Derrick Bell is a racist then.

    Silent Convenants

    What Brown v. Brown Should Have Said Derrick A. Bell, dissenting.

    I hate when stupid people like you make grand judgments as if they knew wtf they were talking about. The next time you go making sweeping generalizations about people and calling them racists, realize that behaviour makes you a fucking bigot yourself.

  519. William
    November 9th, 2008 at 5:49 am [Reply]

    Well, it finally happened. The barbarians are inside the gates of Rome and will soon start sacking the treasuries and the temples. And the citizens barely notice, having drunk the barbarian Kool-Aid.

    Let’s hope that we do not become the United Socialist States of America during this presidency–or at any time.

  520. Tabby Lavalamp
    November 9th, 2008 at 10:13 am [Reply]

    Loudfan #514 – Have you mentioned to your relatives that the most deadly terrorist attack on US soil happened during the Bush presidency? Of course they’ll probably blame Clinton and brush off any evidence that Bush ignored warnings leading up to the attack.

    As for the conservatives bemoaning the upcoming “Socialist States of America”, if they’re like this now then I’d hate to see what they’d be like if a real liberal became president instead of the center-right president-elect they’ve got now.

  521. ring around the collar
    November 9th, 2008 at 11:03 am [Reply]

    Anonymous- 518: “ring around the collar: learn to read, 25 million people delivered from tyranny into at least a chance for democracy is not trivial” (in what appears to be his (or her) attempt to answer my question “what is it that Bush’s admirers admire)

    Dear Anonymous:

    Are you suggesting that Bush learned to read while in office? If so, that is a grand achievement, and I honor him for it. Or are you suggesting that I, myself, ought to brush up on the old literacy skills? Frankly, it was kind of unclear what you wrote. As a foreigner, and therefore naturally somewhat less intelligent than Americans such as yourself, I sometimes am confused by the subleties of your English language. (and isn’t it time you got your own American language? Just askin’) But in any event, I have made great progress lately in this thing called “reading”, and I thank you for your concern.

    As to these 25 million people delivered from tyranny, was this something I should have noticed if I had only read the previous responses to my question in post 500 a little bit more carefully? I think I would have noticed if someone had brought that up. Would you care to elaborate a little on just who these 25 million are? I googled “25 million people”, and the top result was a BBC story about 25 million people who were put on fraud alert in the UK. Somehow, I suspect these weren’t the 25 million you had in mind, but if so, George W. Bush surely did the right thing to put them on fraud alert, even if so doing hardly constitutes “delivery from tyranny”.

    Again, you seem to lack a little in the way of specificity. Perhaps, while I’m taking my reading lessons, you might want to consider taking some in remedial writing?

    Oh, and catchy screen-name there, Anonymous. I like it! Keep up the good work!

  522. steez
    November 9th, 2008 at 6:30 pm [Reply]


    After reading the links you provided, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I read the chapter where Bell dissents with BvBOE. I also don’t think you (or the collective you) are a racist for saying so.

    But I do think that what Bell is trying to say is that if anything, BvBOE was not comprehensive enough. He seems to dissent from it specifically because it is not more effective in talking about racism. “…the detestable segregation in the public schools that the majority finds unconstitutional is a manifestation of the evil of racism the depths and pervasiveness of which this Court fails to acknowledge, much less address and attempt to correct.” (pg 185). He goes on to say that BvBOE provides only “a semblance of… racial equality” and “The court’s long-overdue findings that Negroes are harmed by racial segregation is, regrettably, unaccompanied by an understanding of the economic, political, and psychological advantages whites gain because of that harm” (pg. 185). He also says that the 14th and 15th amendment are similar in that they do not do enough to address the inequalities found between whites and blacks. The final quote I’ll reproduce here is when he says, “…the Brown majority’s vision of racism as an unhappy accident of history immunizes ‘the law’ (as a logical system) from antiracist critique.” (pg 199). Bell is not saying that BvBOE is bad in sentiment; he’s saying that it’s poorly written because it does not go far enough, not that it should never have been written.

    The other link, to the book he wrote, is very interesting, but I think it is saying the same thing. The description of the book has this line: “Bell admonishes blacks to not forgo their real interests even when they do not converge with the majority, and certainly prime among those interests is the educational development of black children”, which seems to support the idea that Bell only wants BvBOE to be different.

    I don’t think that it is a stretch to say that Bell would rather have BvBOE than nothing, though he would rather it was better written and more comprehensive. I do believe that for all its faults, BvBOE was an extremely important piece of civil rights that eventually led to our first bi-racial president some 54 years later, and we as Americans are better off for its existence. But, that being said, I think that schools have become more segregated since the 80s (Feldman, J. [2005]. Integrated public education is still worth fighting for. Human Rights: Journal of the Section of Individual rights & Responsibilities, 32 (4), 13-14). I would argue that our public school system is still seeing the effects of segregated schooling, because separate does not mean equal. Does that mean I think we should integrate again somehow? No, there are integrated schools, and we don’t need to start busing again. But it does mean that all schools have enough funding and professional teachers to make sure that all students are getting a good education. So in the end, I agree with you when you say “A better fix might have been fed funds to help improve the inner-city schools…”. Not in place of BvBOE, but now that we have integration, it’s what we need to do.

    All that said and quoted, I appreciate that you took the time to supply the links. Most people don’t care enough to do that. And let me say again, I don’t think you’re a racist. Part of the reason why I took an hour or so to read your links and consider what you’re saying is to show that there are liberals, in fact far left liberals, who can handle discussions like this without accusing people of racism, and keeping a civil tone. I wish that more on either side would do the same. Also, I apologize that this isn’t a very well written response.

  523. Skullturf Q. Beavispants
    November 10th, 2008 at 12:42 am [Reply]

    519 docweasel said “realize” and also “behaviour”. Are you Canadian?

  524. Gerry
    November 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am [Reply]

    Docweasel @504:

    When was Palin’s family attacked? I must have missed the attacks against Palin that conservatives would have launched had she been a Democrat: the pregnant teenaged daughter, the husband who was a member of a successionist group.

    Sure Dems and the real left wingers attacked Palin because that’s what politics is about, but her family? When?

  525. Les of the Jungle Patrol
    November 10th, 2008 at 1:55 pm [Reply]

    Um, what’s up with the idea that pointing out racism is bigotted? Like, if you say something that comes across as deeply problematic and provide no context and somebody says, “hey that’s racist” then they’re a bigot and you get to point it out. But pointing at something that really seems racist is not ok. So racists get a free pass, but anti-racists don’t? This seems to be a poor system for stopping racism, which I think we all agree is a bad thing.

  526. steez
    November 10th, 2008 at 3:23 pm [Reply]

    Since you’re talking about stopping racism I’ll go from that point. Do you really think that calling someone a racist is going to stop them from being a racist? I’m pretty sure that most people guilty of casual racism don’t actually think they’re a racist, and doing so only antagonizes them and makes it less likely that they are going to listen to the logical argument. Really, the only way I’ve found to confront ideas like that is NOT to say, “You’re being racist”, but to come back with logic, evidence, and a calm demeanor. I apologize that you took offense at what I said, but I’ve seen too many people with a good argument ignored because they pulled out the racism label. I’m not saying that you can’t think it’s racism, but in trying to actually stop it and discredit the racism, calling the other person a racist is extremely ineffective.

    I remember watching a Bill O’ Reilly a few years back. There was a argument between a black man and a white man. To be perfectly honest, I thought that the white guy was expressing a racist sentiment. Instead of coming up with a good argument, the black guy just started shouting “You’re a racist! You’re a racist!”. Then I thought of all those Bill O’ Reilly viewers who might have agreed with a part of what the white guy was saying, and now they’re being called racist. If anything, it probably cemented their views. It certainly didn’t do anything to change it. There’s got to be a better way to confront racism than shouting (I’m guilty of not always following this, as I can get pretty heated when people start talking about Latinos. It’s difficult not to get pissed. But i’m trying to change)

    I’m sorry that you thought I was attacking you. I’m not. We’ve got the same goals. I’m just really interesting in finding the best ways to do it, or at least practicing it. I’ll check back here later if you want to discuss it further. Like you, I’m just trying to find out the best way to confront racism.

  527. ms. docweasel
    November 12th, 2008 at 11:04 pm [Reply]

    #524 Beavis
    No, British

    #525 Gerry
    Jesus, have you read a newspaper or a blog in the last 3 months? Attacking her kids, her husband, her sister, etc. Plus the constant rumors that her baby wasn’t her own but instead her daughter’s. Jeez. Do you live in a cave?

    Rightbloggers should be doing everything possible to undermine and damage Obama. Demonize him. Disrespect him. Misquote him. Attribute slips of the lip or gaffes to stupidity and let’s get a “given” established that he’s dishonest, a cretin, traitorous, criminal and evil. Distort and invent quotes and urban legends to ridicule and discredit him. It worked for the Dems. To anyone who says “let’s give him a chance” I say fuck Obama.

  528. Gerry
    November 13th, 2008 at 9:52 am [Reply]

    Ms Docweasel @528,

    My cave was foreclosed on, so now I live under a rock. It’s a shame but the rock has much better morning sun.

    Silly me, I thought you might actually give specifics, not reiterating your original point that “the left” attacked her family. Etc is especially helpful. I’ll google it when I get Internet access under my rock.

    When it comes to her husband, he was a member of a successiont group and Sarah herself attending meeting. Not so much an attack as the truth. I can see how conservatives might confuse the two considering their Lee Attwater tactics

    If by attacks on Bristol you mean her pregnancy, again, truth is not attacking. Palin’s unreasonable stand on abstinance-only education, lack of support for actual sex ed, and opposition to birth control surely had something to do with Bristol’s pregnancy. Again, the truth. Besides, Obama himself laid the issue to rest rather quickly by reminding everyone that his mother was 18 when she was pregnant with him. It was really Bill O’Reilly who attacked another pregnant teen, Jamie Lynn Spears, and then defended Palin. How dare her talk about teenage pregnancy derisively in the first case then call for privavcy in the second. Also, Palin’s own public comments on Bristol’s pregnancy–that she “choose” to have the baby demonstrate that palin is pro-choice–the term does not mean “pro-abortion”, it means women should have the right to choose–for her family but not in favor of it for others. Hypocritical. And I can’t imagine that the right would have left untouched revelations that Obama has a pregnant 17-year-old pregnant daughter. After all, wasn’t Rove behind the smear campaign against McCain in the 200 primaries that calimed McCain have fathered a child with a black man? Rove must be sorry about that now, attacking someone’s imaginary family.

    And rumors by idiot bloggers don’t count as attacks by the establishment. They should be dismissed by any rational person. Sort of like the claims that Obama is a radical Muslim. I know the mainstream right media followed its own ethical code on that one. I’m sorry, I thought I was talking talking about ACTUAL negative stories, not stupid bloggers making stuff up. My mistake.

    And her sister is the one who was was divorcing the man Palin tried to fire, right? Not exactly an attack on the sister, unless the sister asked Palin to have the man fired, in which case we come back to the truth. I realize that the truth is a touchy subject for conservatives. Sorry if I hit a nerve.

    Right bloggers, Fox News, and the Ditto-Heads should do what they have urged their opponents to do for the last few years: support out wartime president! His decisions shouldn’t be questioned! He’s a wartime president! Asking Obama followup questions is “gotcha” journalism! He’s a wartime president! The president should act unilaterally! He’s a wartime president! The executive branch should be powerful and ignore checks and balances! Obama is our wartime president! Let’s give him the deferential, gloves-off treatment conservatives and the media gave the Bush White House before and at the beginning of the Iraq war. Surely, as a conservative with high moral principals you must agree with that, right?

  529. Gerry
    November 13th, 2008 at 2:49 pm [Reply]

    Hey, look at all those typos! But you get the gist, I hope

  530. Deena in OR
    November 13th, 2008 at 3:51 pm [Reply]


    I especially liked this one:

    After all, wasn’t Rove behind the smear campaign against McCain in the 200 primaries that calimed McCain have fathered a child with a black man?(snip)

    If that was true, he would have been history in the
    Republican party a looong time before 2008. (grin)

  531. ms docweasel
    November 13th, 2008 at 7:23 pm [Reply]

    If you are really unaware of the attacks on Palin’s family, other than false smears that the party was separatist (that was an astroturfed smear by Obama’s agents, led by David Axelrod, btw, which was exposed)

    So what if her teen daughter got pregnant? Why attack her? Do we know if Chelsea ever got pregnant? Do we know if she had an abortion? Should the press investigate? Andrew Sullivan is STILL accusing Palin of covering up the true mother of Trig is her daughter. THIS WEEK he posted about it.

    It’s really hard to debate with people so ignorant of basic facts.

    fuck obama

  532. Mountain Mama
    November 13th, 2008 at 8:21 pm [Reply]

    In the words of just about every conservative from 2000 and 2004: “You lost. Get over it.”

    That being said, I just really want to move on past this demonization of candidates and “the other side.” We’re all Americans. We all want the same things. We want secure jobs, comfortable homes, happy families. We want a truly representative government that acts in citizens’ best interests. We want an open, transparent government. We want a strong military.

    It’s time for everybody to grow up a bit and plunge in and work together to make this country what it really could be–a compassionate society that respects all and cares for all.

    I’m just sick of the race-baiting, name-calling, wacked-out characterizations from both sides.

    That’s all I got.

  533. Gerry
    November 14th, 2008 at 11:21 am [Reply]

    Ms docweasel,
    1. I never wrote that palin was a member of the successionist group. Her husband was.

    2. That link to the Jawa report contains this quote from to buttress its claims that Sarah wasn’t a member:

    [Sarah Palin] was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group that wants Alaskans to vote on whether they wish to secede from the United States.

    See that part about Alaska succeeding from the United States? That’s what I mean when I say that Mr. Palin was in a successionist group, namely because the group he was in wants to succeed from the United States. See that connection? How members of certain groups support the group’s causes?

    Mrs. Palin attended one of the group’s conventions. That’s also on

    And from the Jawa Report it sounds like Palin was Swiftboated! Oh the retroactive horror you must be feeling toward Karl Rove! I’m sure the mea culpas will commence.

    This week, Andrew Sullivan did blog about Sarah and Trig, but it has nothing to do with her “covering up the true mother of Trig.” It’s about how much Sullivan respects Palin for having a baby even though she knew Trig had Down Syndrome. he writes this at the end:

    “But I do respect someone who walks the walk of their ideals – even if their career is in full swing, even if there are dangers to the pregnancy, even if her own family is unfortunately lit up by the klieg-light of attention. In this ecision, Palin was both pro-choice and pro-life, which is where I come down on this issue. She didn’t force anyone else to have this child by law. She made the choice herself – with all the possible consequences.
    My hat is off to her. I this respect, if on nothing else, I think both pro-choice and pro-life people can agree.”

    here’s the link if anyone wants to read what Sulivan acually wrote, not what ms docweasel said he did:

  534. Gerry
    November 14th, 2008 at 11:24 am [Reply]

    Forgot one thing. The AIP wants Alaskans to vote on one of four choices for the state,

    1) Remain a Territory.
    2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
    3) Accept Commonwealth status.
    4) Become a State.

    However, the group itself backs indepences and succession. This is a quote from the AIP website:

    “The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party’s founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences.”

  535. Daniel
    November 15th, 2008 at 12:29 pm [Reply]

    @442 The\”Waz (November 5th, 2008 at 6:13 pm):

    438 – We’ll have to agree to disagree. Your point is valid if we all planted the same amount. I worked my tail off to get to where I am at. I continue to work my tail off to make what I make. For someone to come in and decide…’Nope, you are making too much’. Thats BS. And no, I am not at a point where the increase would impact me. Yet. In fact, I’m not even close.

    You notice what you just said? That nobody has decided you were making too much? And then you say “yet”–let me quote Hal Jordan, post 381 (November 5th, 2008 at 11:36 am):

    But it’s not just the rich who complain (although they are the only ones who benefit), it’s the bubbas in this world who hold out hope (to borrow a word) that someday they’ll be that rich too and they want lower taxes just in case! Arrgggh – you’re being suckered! (/RANT)

  536. docweasel
    November 16th, 2008 at 9:19 am [Reply]

    re: mt mama

    yeah race-baiting. the only race-baiting done this campaign was by the Obamaites. That’s what we’re in for the next 4 years: anyone who criticizes Buttcrack Obama will be called a racist.

  537. Mountain Mama
    November 17th, 2008 at 6:08 pm [Reply]

    “Buttcrack”? I rest my case.

  538. Anonymous
    November 18th, 2008 at 7:47 pm [Reply]

    The Tax System – Explained With Beer

    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

    The fifth would pay $1.
    The sixth would pay $3.
    The seventh would pay $7.
    The eighth would pay $12.
    The ninth would pay $18.
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
    So, that’s what they decided to do.

    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.’Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’

    They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

    And so:
    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings). The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings). The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 ( 25% savings). The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings). The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. ‘I only got a dollar out of the 20,’declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’ ‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’ ‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’ ‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’ The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

    The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
    they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most
    benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

  539. Great American Satan
    November 2nd, 2010 at 9:13 pm [Reply]

    I’ll inaugurate 2010 with Washington state politics and inflammatory statements.

    If you didn’t vote yes on the income tax and you make less than 200k a year, you’re a class traitor and you can go to hell.

    If Patty Murray doesn’t crush that piece if trash Rossi so hard he’s spitting teeth he didn’t even know he had, then I say everyone in this state must be drained of about half their blood. Only the survivors can live to ponder the error of their ways.


  540. Great American Satan
    November 2nd, 2010 at 9:18 pm [Reply]

    Now that I think about it, just looking back over the last three 2008 posts, I can tell I shouldn’t be getting into this. I get angry too easily. I’ll just leave you inflamed and never bother to come back and read what you had to say about it, like a good little troll.

  541. wocket
    November 2nd, 2010 at 9:23 pm [Reply]

    Instead of ranting, all I’ll say on the PA elections is this:

    I cannot read “Sestak” without thinking “sleestak”.

  542. Aviatrix
    November 2nd, 2010 at 9:26 pm [Reply]

    This is brilliant. I’m going to have to copy you and have such a post on my blog. I don’t know anything about the people running in your election except that one of them has proclaimed that she is a) not a witch, b) does not masturbate and c) is you.

  543. OKStan
    November 2nd, 2010 at 10:03 pm [Reply]

    A lot less vitriol than I expected here. A lot fewer posts than I expected.
    Seems the Repubs will take over the House as I type this. Expect two more years of gridlock and “The Party of No!”. Yee-haw.

  544. [Old Man] Muffaroo
    November 3rd, 2010 at 12:12 am [Reply]

    The People are convinced that the party that left the ship of state upside down on Rodeo Drive and threw a fit when they heard it would cost money to get it rightside up, seaworthy, and back in the water… should be given the keys again.

    Looks like a lot depends on how much the Democrats can summon up their inner strength and this time really make the GOP understand how much they really really want to be friends! “Aw, c’mon, guys; this is serious! Ow! Ow! Ow. Ow. Ow…”

  545. Markie
    November 3rd, 2010 at 1:59 am [Reply]

    Okay, everybody here knows our MINNESOTA LOON, Michelle Bachman??

    For about -3 MONTHS- I have been the unwilling recipient of her record campaign spending via TV ads! I mean you’re talking at LEAST two ads per break! I was SO looking forward to voting AGAINST her…but NO, that little pleasure was denied me for Michie is running in a different district than mine!! Grrrrrrrr……….

  546. Roman Fingers
    November 3rd, 2010 at 5:36 am [Reply]

    I voted for Cthulhu. I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils.

  547. Calico
    November 3rd, 2010 at 9:45 am [Reply]

    Oh, I have no bitterness this fine morning – but I am biting my nails a bit because the VT Governor’s race had not yet been decided.
    I voted for Peter Shumlin – he’s ahead by about 4,000 votes. We’ll just have to be patient and see what happens.
    It really has been a mixed bag this time around, hasn’t it? I find it fascinating, especially from my vantage point as an ex-pat living in Canada.

  548. Anonymous
    November 3rd, 2010 at 11:57 am [Reply]

    @Aviatrix (#542): she is a) not a witch, b) does not masturbate and c) is you.

    There seems to be a logical contradiction here.

  549. Reepicheepchan
    November 3rd, 2010 at 1:38 pm [Reply]

    @Great American Satan (#539): I agree completely, especially about the income tax. 90% of the people who voted against that are stupid and the other 10% self-serving dick-wads.

  550. Great American Satan
    November 7th, 2010 at 12:01 am [Reply]

    Thanks, reep. Patty Murray won, but not by as wide a margin as she should have, thanks to stupid people and a $3million anonymous advantage for Rossi Robocalls. Other than that, every measure on broke conservative.

    This state really hates poor people. The first services on the chopping block are programs to help the poor and needy. Services for abused women and stuff like that. You know, “freeloadin’ welfare moms.”

    Seems like most poor folks either A) Don’t vote, or B) Are class traitors. Which makes me a class traitor, as I punch them in their stupid faces.

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